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From NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Date Sun, 01 Apr 2012 02:08:39 GMT
On 03/31/2012 01:40 PM, Hagar Delest wrote:
> Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> a
> écrit :
>> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list,
>> he is not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly
>> copied on the response.
> 
> Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed
> posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to
> the list power users to handle such posters. On the former OOo
> mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC

Sorry, but you'd be wrong Hagar... the OOo list (user and discuss) is
full of worthless to-and-fro electrons about 'good ways' if any, to
reliably spot 'Moderated' posts. You should know that as you've posted
on the OOo list (and thanks for doing so) for a few years. Could it be
that you just popped in when a forum user needed added help?

> (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the headers, ok
> I'll stop here no TB devs here).

Again there was quite a bit of disussion regarding that issue as well.
It was only when TB allowed filtering on headers that the situation
improved (briefly) for those TB/SeaMonkey users. However, it was still
hit & miss a some users knew how to apply the filters, most did not.
Even back as far as 2005 headers containd a dual 'Delivered-To' header.
And in 2009 I pursued the issue on the Mozilla bug:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16913#c101
Also see:
<http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.openoffice.questions/202093>
for an example thread on the subject.

> 
> 
>> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated
>> by unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe
>> themselves without assistance.

@ Rob: I suspect that the majority of those "unrelated questions and
answers" will subside with valid subscribed posters/readers.

>> 
>> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without 
>> unnecessary complications.  I think the support forums are a much
>> better place for users to raise such questions.
>> 
>> What do you think?   What is the purpose of this ooo-users list
>> compared to the support forums?  On some project communications we
>> advertise both as equal support avenues for users to raise
>> problems.  Is that what we should be doing?  In other words, what
>> is the purpose of this list and how do we make that clear to
>> users?
> 
> Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place
> (forum for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it
> adds frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was
> expecting a direct answer from the list).

And there is the key... "(he has to register the forum whereas he was
expecting a direct answer from the list)". So after all the wasted time,
effort, patience of OOo responders attempting to sort out the
subscribe/unsubscribe issue, it still comes down to: it's perfectly OK
to have the requirement for posters to register (subscribe) to the
forum, but hey, anyone can post to the user lists without ever subscribing.

> 
> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only?

What is the forum then: A place for advanced users only?

> ... Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you
> want. Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed
> user. 

Agreed.

> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some

Yes IMO. Why is it good for the gander but not the goose?

> users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their
> own? You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public

No, idealy means that the "user" will need to do exactly the same as
when they wish to ask a question on your forum; subscribe/register
before doing so. If a 'user' doesn't wish to use forums, then they are
very welcome on the lists, providing that they understand what the list
is, and subscribe before posting.

> is not made of developers used to mailing lists here, they are
> standard or low knowledge users. The former list was full of
> duplicates, the same questions come again and again, but that's the
> job. 

Really? You started posting on the OOo list in 2009... the bulk of posts
you made start & continue with links/references to the forums. That is
quite OK & I very much appreciate your contribution & excellent advise.
However I'd have to look real hard to find any of your posts to an
'unsubscribed' or 'Moderated' user on the OOo user list.
  So in all fairness, I do not think that you've delt with the
'unsubscribed' OOo list user supporters that became *highly frustrated*
with the subscribe/unsubscribe issue.
...



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