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From J├╝rgen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Code of Conduct
Date Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:42:10 GMT
On 9/11/12 10:04 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sep 10, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> We have a code of conduct here: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/list-conduct.html
>>
>> These are the community's code and we should all agree to abide by the code. Maybe
there is some more work to do exposing the code. Maybe the  code needs to be modified.
> 
> I believe we discussed that text for several weeks. It started on the
> wiki. I eventually moved it onto the website.   But it was written in
> the form of guidelines. You would probably need to reword them if you
> wanted to have an enforceable "code".
> 
>>
>> Graduation requires the project to be self-governing. What do people think? I think
we should discuss a few topics.
>>
> 
> I think it is possible to be self-governing while still being
> tolerant.   Remember the community - if healthy - is constantly
> growing. So we want to be primarily ruled by common sense coupled with
> tolerance.   It would be interesting to see if any other Apache
> project thought that having more than list guidelines was necessary.

That is true and the first thing we should do is to practice our own
guidelines all together. discussing and writing down is one thing but
practicing in real life is something different.

> 
>> (1) What are the consequences of breaking the code of conduct?
>>
>> - Loss of merit in the community including the possibility of losing any karma in
the project. Karma is the ability to make commits.
>>
> 
> I think that confuses the Committer and PMC member roles.  We probably
> should have coding guidelines that cover the things that cause karma
> to be lost.   For example repeated breaking of the build could lead to
> losing karma.

We don't want to have to strict rules, I think more important for us is
to identify repeated misbehaviour according our code of conduct
guidelines and take proper actions on a case by case evaluation. There
is probably room for different actions and many things have to be taken
into account.

Excluding community members is not what we want, it's quite contrary to
that. We want increase our community and it is important that we all
follow these small set of guidelines that we have defined.

Nobody should be shy to even remind longer staying and more experienced
community members to respect our own guidelines. Well we will have
different pain levels but we can try to reflect potential misbehaviour
in a broader sense and can think what it does or can mean for others.

> 
>> - Banning from the list. Moderators will need to treat offenders like spammers.
> 
> I don't believe moderators have this technical ability, at least not
> as ezmlm roles are currently configured.
> 
>>
>> (2) Who is responsible for enforcing the code?
>>
>> - it should be enforced by anyone who sees it happening. In most cases a reminder
will be enough.
>>
>> - what if they won't stop? who is next? If the PPMC is working it should be noticed,
but if not then probably a note to ooo-private.
>>
> 
> You are assuming the existing guidelines are self-interpreting. They
> are not. They are fuzzy and broad. Not a bad thing for guidelines. But
> you'll run into problems if you try to treat them as if they had a
> hard edge that "anyone who sees it happening" can apply.
> 
>> (3) How do we expose the code?
>>
>> - we have unsubscribe links on ooo-users, we could add a link to the policy.
>>
>> (4) Should we update the code?
>>
>> - the code should be edited to include the information decided for (1) and (2)
>>
>> - anything else?
> 
> 5. What lists does this apply to?
> 
> 6. What about Apache Members and ASF Officers?  Are they subject to
> the same "enforcement" as other community members?

I think this is a superfluous question and we have discussed and defined
these guidelines as general for all our mailing lists and as a general
guideline to participate in our project and as the same for all
participants.

Juergen

> 
> 
>>
>> Please feel free to elaborate.
>>
>> Let's leave this open for a week to discuss. No need to hurry.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave


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