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From Dave Fisher <>
Subject Re: Specific actions needed for developing the community
Date Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:06:54 GMT
Top posting because we have a specific ecosystem issue that needs handling - distribution.

In the former OOo days companies, groups and individuals could become community distributors.
They could make use of logos and CD labels and package their own version of OOo. These still
exist. I see you responded to one from filepuma today.

Now that the OOo trademark is at the ASF the rules must change. How do we reach out to these
distributors to guide them into compliance. The PPMC has not handled it well. The results
from waiting for people to come, ask the right questions, listen to the answers and then apply
them needs to be managed. Very early in this podling's history Martin from Team OOo did come
and ask, he got answers, but failed to listen to the whole answer, went off and did what was
done. This caused a huge problem.

Like our Mentors I had no prior relationship to OOo, and lacked an understanding of the specific
players within the whole ecosystem. Louis is certainly someone with a sense of it and it sure
would be great to move forward and create a clear outreach with accessible and clear instructions
on this change.


On Sep 7, 2012, at 5:23 AM, Ian Lynch wrote:

> On 7 September 2012 12:56, Jürgen Schmidt <> wrote:
>> On 9/7/12 12:30 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:
>>> On 7 September 2012 10:27, Jürgen Schmidt <> wrote:
>>>> On 9/7/12 10:28 AM, Ian Lynch wrote:
>>>>> There is some difference between the way ASF sees "community" compared
>>>>> to the former structures of the OOo community. ASF sees much of what
>>>>> the old OOo called the community as the "ecosystem".
>>>> It is definitely an important aspect and I think everybody is invited to
>>>> take responsibility to reach out to the broader eco-systems and help to
>>>> increase it
>>>> As a specific
>>>>> proposal I think we need at least one ppmc/pmc member with the role of
>>>>> linking to wider community or ecosystem projects and I'd nominate
>>>>> Louis for that role because he has the most experience. I'm willing to
>>>>> assist if he accepts that role and thinks I could be useful. It could
>>>>> be that additional roles develop in marketing, distribution etc within
>>>>> the pmc but that does not have to be decided at this stage. Such roles
>>>>> could be developed outside ASF but with a formal link to the pmc to
>>>>> support communications.
>>>> I would not bind it to a specific person or to a role. Anybody can do
>>>> anything here and anybody is encouraged to simply start doing things.
>>> Nothing stops anyone doing community support, it but Rob was saying
>>> some things were being left because I guess it was no-one's specific
>>> responsibility and he was left to take action.
>> maybe or it was simply because the active community members would have
>> been busy with other things, I don't know.
>> To me a pMc has a
>>> management role. In a large project like AOO management has to have
>>> some sort of organisation. While a small project can get by with
>>> informal task based culture, the larger the organisation the less well
>>> this works. ASF itself is divided into different projects for that
>>> reason. We gave the press liaison role to Don IIRC. We also have the
>>> precedent of the previously successful OOo structure. That worked well
>>> with a lot of the community tasks then not distracting the engineering
>>> effort.
>> gave we this role to Don or did he simply took this task and expressed
>> responsibility for it. I think this is a difference.
>> If you or Louis will take responsibiltiy for this task just do it. Don't
>> wait!
> To an extent I already have been doing some of these things on an
> occasional basis. I doubt I'd have time to do more on my own. We
> already said it is unclear to many what skills people in the ppmc have
> or even why they might be helpful. Just expecting all that to become
> apparent and reacting to day to day contacts from the wider ecosystem
> is to me not management, its wishful thinking at best. Perhaps this
> lack of organisation for community management in a project that once
> had probably the most organised community support of any FOSS project
> is something that concerns mentors.
>> We have this already in other areas where people started to take
>> responsibility for specific tasks.
>> My suggestion is that we let it evolve and don't start with a corset of
>> roles. I belief that persons will grow in such "roles" (if you prefer
>> this term) by taking ownership and responsibility for it.
> Maybe, but it will take longer so to me the price to pay for  that
> might well be a delay in graduation.  Mentors require evidence that
> the ppmc is taking action to make itself sustainable. It seems to me
> logical to provide that evidence sooner rather than later if we want
> to prevent delays in graduation.
> btw, I only suggested one role not role(s) and that is a fairly
> generic thing as much a point of contact as an executive role which is
> why it would be difficult to evolve simply from doing tasks. If others
> suggest other roles that are currently not clear perhaps it might help
> less active ppmc members find their niche. If it doesn't no great harm
> done. If no-one suggests any other roles perhaps no others are
> necessary.
>>> This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody,
>>> Anybody, and Nobody.
>>> There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that
>>> Somebody would do it.
>>> Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
>>> Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
>>> Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that
>>> Everybody wouldn't do it.
>>> It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what
>>> Anybody could have done
>> I like this and it can help us to understand that we should not wait
>> that others do the work for us.
> It also illustrates why some defined roles in large organisations are
> better than just hoping someone with interest will pick something up.
> Why have a PMC at all if there is no management in it? Just call it a
> PC.
> -- 
> Ian
> Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
> +44 (0)1827 305940
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