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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Apache OpenOffice Community Graduation Vote
Date Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:34:50 GMT
On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
> Bullshit.  The policy is as old as the org itself and applies equally

The problem is that when someone questions what the policy is, as
several IPMC members have already, the response goes no further than
yelling that the policy is well-known, obvious, unambiguous, clear,
etc.  No one is questioning the age or the equal application of the

Shutting down the discussion, without resolving the issue, just leads
to it emerging later at another point.  In fact, if you go back to the
general.i.a.o discussion from June 2011, when the AOO podling was
first proposed, some of the same concerns were raised by some of the
same IPMC members.  They were not resolved then.  They were not
resolved this time.  What do you think happens next?  Do you really
think that there is clarity now and this will not just come back
again, weeks or months later?

The IPMC is welcome to run themselves as they wish.  But I sincerely
hope that the AOO project will not emulate or tolerate this kind of
behavior and interaction.  It is very unwelcoming to newcomers to have
that mixture of condescension and bullying when questions are asked.

> to every project in the org including this one.  Rob, if you had the vaguest
> clue about the history of what the httpd project produces you would have
> some idea of what the written policy is meant to cover.  People who don't bother
> to look often wind up making ignorant remarks about the written policy;
> such is the nature of orgs which have zero educational standards for
> participation at any level.

Certainly unwritten policies are even more susceptible to ignorant remarks.

> Policy writing itself is a long and painful process in a bottom-up org.
> Very few people have enough experience with the diversity of our projects
> to ensure the policy accurately reflects current activity.  The only person
> who I've seen be consistently successful is Roy, and even then not without
> input from others.

I appreciate the challenges of writing organizational policies.  I've
done this in other organizations.  But as you say, this policy "is as
old as the org itself ", and yet when it is shown that those who are
charged with implementing the policy for podlings (IPMC members)
cannot agree on what the policy is, there is still great resistance to
writing it down, amounting to even personal attacks against those who
even suggest doing this.

> Your are welcome to get off your armchair and participate constructively
> with others who care about the policy documentation over on site-dev@.

Indeed I did propose a statement of the policy.  I believe I'm the
only one who did.  But at the same time others posted that it would be
unwelcome to make any website changes without further discussion.

> Otherwise I suggest you drop the antagonistic and over-the-top prose.

I sincerely hope that nothing I said is taken as antagonistic.



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