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Subject: Re: Crazy idea: Use Google to translate website
From: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:18:15 -0700
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org

Sorry for the top post. I like where this is going. A lot of interesting =
ideas.

I have one major concern. How do we manage the human created content as =
people replace and/or edit the translations. What happens when the =
original English (or French) page is changed? To me we are really =
discussing managing Markdown text. If the names of files are like:

index.mdtext
index.en-GB.mdtext
index.fr.mdtext

We'll have some type of Apache CMS magic that can handle translated SSI =
elements. I need to write Joe / infra-dev an email...=20

Then if we can tie together the CMS to take translations and somehow =
inform either or both the human and/or the tool translators when changes =
occur in other languages ... svn diff can be used... assuming that...

With markdown it will be easy to have a header parameter that will =
signal the inclusion of an SSI detailing the machine translated page vs. =
human translation situation. By making it an SSI and translatable it can =
become something different language groups can handle in an organic way. =
We'll have an objective measure of the engagement of different language =
communities based on the the number of edits, number of translators and =
how up to date and/or responsive they are.

I think we could start by creating a test-auto.mdtext file, and using =
the translate.google to convert it to 100 pages. Put the scripts in the =
ooo-site/trunk/tools/ directory. If they are perl scripts then in =
ooo-site/lib/.

Regards,
Dave

On Jul 2, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Donald Whytock <dwhytock@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> You don't have to use Google Translate for the entire site into a
>>>>> given language.  Better than no page at all in a given language is =
a
>>>>=20
>>>> True.   To enable this integration requires adding markup to two
>>>> places in the HTML file:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1) Load some script in the <head> section
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) Add a Google-provided <div> to wherever in the page we want the
>>>> language selector drop down to be.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be really easy to add this to a small number of selected =
pages.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would also be easy to add to all pages via the CMS template.
>>>>=20
>>>> What would be hard is managing this for a large number of pages, =
but
>>>> not all pages.
>>>>=20
>>>>> page in a given language that says, "Hi there!  This is the site =
for
>>>>> Apache OpenOffice.  We welcome translations of our site into your
>>>>> language, and invite you to volunteer at the following email =
address:
>>>>> <blah> Or you can submit a translation through Google Translate, =
which
>>>>> was used to produce this page."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Something as short as that is less likely to be garbled in
>>>>> auto-translation than something technical, and it tells potential
>>>>> contributors what to do to help out.
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The trick would be to get people to visit that page.  Unless it was =
on
>>>> the home page.
>>>>=20
>>>> -Rob
>>>>=20
>>>>> Don
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> OK, it took me a little while to weed through Google's info on this.
>>>=20
>>> A good sample can be found at:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> =
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/translate-your-website-with-google.=
html
>>>=20
>>> Is there any possibility we could ad the gadget to the OOo blogs =
site --
>>>=20
>>> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/
>>>=20
>>> just for fun and see what we think?
>>> This way we'd just be impacting one page and not a whole site.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> If we want access to review and approve suggestions made by readers
>> then it needs to be on a domain that we "own".  This is in common =
with
>> most Google services, you need to demonstrate that you control the
>> domain, typically by adding a special META tag to the homepage.  For
>> *.openoffice.org this is easy, and I've already done this to enable
>> Google Analytics.  If we want to do the same for the blog we'd need
>> the ability to insert special markup into the <head> and <body> of =
the
>> blog template.  I'm not sure whether this is possible with our Roller
>> setup.
>>=20
>=20
> oh -- well too bad. It could have been fun.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Another way of testing this, in a quantitative way, is via what is
>> called "A/B Testing".  With this approach we define an action a
>> satisfied site visitor might take, like downloading AOO 3.4.  Then we
>> randomly show users either the original home page (or download page =
or
>> any other page we're testing).  This is "A", and then we show other
>> users a different version, B.  For example, B could have the
>> translation enabled.  Then we ran this "experiment" for a period of
>> time, like a week or two, tracking which version of the page has the
>> higher success rate with users.
>>=20
>=20
> hmmmm...interesting
>=20
> OK, I've looked at the rest of your post here and will think about =
this for
> a bit.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> If the machine translated page leads visitors confuses users, or =
makes
>> them suspect the page, then the download %'s will be lower than the
>> original page.  And if the translated page is helpful then the
>> download numbers would be higher.
>>=20
>> You could imagine other success indicators.  Pretty much anything =
that
>> has a URL can be measured.   For example, imagine we add a link, =
"This
>> page solved my problem" to the bottom of every documentation page.
>> Even though the link would just go to a "thanks" page, we could use
>> that action to measure the success of translated versus untranslated
>> pages.
>>=20
>> Of course, we don't need to do this all at once.  But I'd recommend =
we
>> think of ways of quantifying success.  The website serves our users.
>> How do we know what is working well and what isn't?  How can we =
design
>> experiments to test alternative approaches?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Possible successes for users might be:
>>=20
>> - downloaded AOO
>>=20
>> - found answer to their question
>>=20
>> - signed up for our announcement list
>>=20
>> - entered their first bug report
>>=20
>> - signed up for one of the project lists
>>=20
>> - make first wiki contribution
>>=20
>> - followed/liked/+1'ed us on one of our social networking sites
>>=20
>> Measure, improve, repeat.   Constant improvement and optimization.
>>=20
>> We can debate what will improve the website for the users.  Or we can
>> test and measure.  A/B testing is a new option for us, a technique
>> that once was used only by the largest commercial websites, but is =
now
>> available to everyone via Google's "content experiments" support in
>> Google Analytics.
>>=20
>> -Rob
>>=20
>>> I think that might a perfect application for something like this.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>>=20
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------
>>> MzK
>>>=20
>>> "I would rather have a donkey that takes me there
>>> than a horse that will not fare."
>>>                                          -- Portuguese proverb
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------
> MzK
>=20
> "I would rather have a donkey that takes me there
> than a horse that will not fare."
>                                          -- Portuguese proverb