Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 671AADED2 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:58:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 58154 invoked by uid 500); 16 Jul 2012 18:58:10 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 58078 invoked by uid 500); 16 Jul 2012 18:58:10 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 58069 invoked by uid 99); 16 Jul 2012 18:58:10 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:58:10 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of dennis.hamilton@acm.org designates 216.119.133.2 as permitted sender) Received: from [216.119.133.2] (HELO a2s42.a2hosting.com) (216.119.133.2) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:58:03 +0000 Received: from 71-217-73-181.tukw.qwest.net ([71.217.73.181]:33662 helo=Astraendo) by a2s42.a2hosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1SqqUJ-003MSP-1l for ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: References: <001501cd62e7$831dd430$89597c90$@acm.org> <003101cd62f4$b4f3c7f0$1edb57d0$@acm.org> <003b01cd6302$cac672e0$605358a0$@acm.org> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Terms of Service on Forums Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:57:42 -0700 Organization: NuovoDoc Message-ID: <015401cd6384$e2087390$a6195ab0$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGL0OdBiS7iIEr7IyWvUgeed2d1QQI607JQAd+ZkaMCCmVhuAMtPw31AVf0l2OXWhTCEA== Content-Language: en-us X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - a2s42.a2hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - incubator.apache.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - acm.org X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org I have no idea why a page on the incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg = structure has terms that apply to the openoffice.org domain (and = subdomains?). I also have no idea why that page has an HTML comment that offers = itself under ALv2, in conflict with the terms it states. I have nothing further to add to this conversation. - Dennis -----Original Message----- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]=20 Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 04:50 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Terms of Service on Forums On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > I am not the one to answer that question. > > It is a policy matter for the ASF and, I presume, a determination that = also involves legal@ a.o. > My point is that since other ASF and project sites do not have a ToU statement on them, then it is not necessary to have one to conform to ASF policies. > I don't have a ToU on my web sites, though many of the pages have = Creative Commons 2.0 notices. I require commenters to be registered to = comment on my blogs, but I don't know there is a ToU that goes with any = of those, although there might have been when Google Blogger was the = publishing service. > > But my needs (and responsibilities) are quite different than the those = of the ASF in fulfilling its public-interest operation and how it = respects the work of others. > Again, we don't see ToU on ASF sites. > I think it matters that the great majority of content that is already = there was already published under terms of use. There are legacy terms = to deal with in now that material is dealt with and in how visitors can = regard it without knowing when such material was contributed. > Actually, the specific example Kay brought up was our incubator site at http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. None of that had legacy terms. It is all new stuff. So why do we need ToU there? > I think it matters that there are requests for permission to reuse = materials on the site and it is not clear what standing the PPMC has to = approve (or decline) such requests. > We *never* have standing to approve requests to reuse content. We (the project) do not own content. In most cases neither does the ASF. The most we can do is point users to an existing license. -Rob > - Dennis > > PS: http://apache.org has a copyright notice, a license notice (and = link), and trademark notice. There is no notice of any kind in the = element of the HTML. The situation with the openoffice.org = domains and their content is not so simple. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 18:55 > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Terms of Service on Forums > > On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton > wrote: >> Um, yes, it definitely is the ASF that should be standing behind the = ToU. They're the only legal entity. >> >> Of CollabNet ToU, I know not. The terms.mdtext that Kay found are = very much the ToU of the original openoffice.org site, with someone's = tweaking. So Oracle used them. >> >> I think removing legalese is fine, until it become bad legalese. >> >> What more would you remove? >> > > A thought experiment: what if we removed 100%? In other words, had > no ToU on the website. Would anything bad happen? What would the > risk be? I don't see a ToU on www.apache.org, or in a spot check of > several high profile Apache projects. Do we have some special risk > that they do not have that requires us to put additional legalese on > every website page? Are they helping their users less than we are > ours? How? > >> - Dennis >> >> PS: I notice there needs to be some improvement in what the terms = apply to. The found one did not mention forums. I think it should be = about the openoffice.org domain and its subdomains. = incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg is a different game. >> > > If we do decide to go with ToU, one option would be to have a set of > "common terms" and then a list of additional terms which apply to only > particular services. But personally, I'd toss it all out except > necessary notices for things like privacy and trademark. We're not a > multi-billion dollar corporation and we don't need to armor our > website with legal terms like we are one. > > -Rob > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] >> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 17:44 >> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org >> Subject: Re: Terms of Service on Forums >> >> On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton >> wrote: >>> @Kay >>> >>> Well, just to prove to myself that I can make use of the ASF CMS = Bookmarklet, I edited the terms.html page. [I didn't trigger = publication though, so you may have to find them in the staging place.] >>> >>> Here are the essential changes I made: >>> >>> I eliminated AOO-PPMC as the authority, since it isn't. I used the = Apache Software Foundation as the HOST. >>> >> >> If we think the ASF is the authority, then they should determine the >> ToU, right? >> >> In any case, this looks like the old CollabNet ToU, doesn't it? It >> looks like Dave checked in last August. It will fit our needs as = much >> as a stranger's shoes would fit me. >> >> In any case, my original suggestion still applies: Let's stop trying >> to hack the legalese of existing ToU written by and for other >> organizations, since none of are lawyers and we do not understand >> fully how the parts fit together. Instead, let's state, in plain >> English, what we want to cover in the ToU and then go to = legal-discuss >> for the wordsmithing. >> >> -Rob >> >> [ ... ] >>> >> >