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From Christian Grobmeier <>
Subject Re: Java download link on AOO site
Date Fri, 13 Jul 2012 03:59:24 GMT
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
> Hello? Is this thing on?  This project has a whopping
> 9GB website that all of maybe 5 people on the planet
> know how to takecare of, and it is rife with stale
> information inherited from a different past.  The website
> is a *community* resource and that means *everyone* is
> responsible for its upkeep.  You should be working hard
> to ensure that *everyone* is capable of fixing it, not
> making exceptions for certain committers just because
> they do special things for you in other areas.  Anyone
> can use the CMS to submit a patch, and had Hagar done
> at least that much I wouldn't have anything to gripe about.
> The technology that facilitates website maintenance happens
> to be a CMS, but really it is no more challenging to work with
> than the average wiki.  Get over it, it's not a technological
> barrier for anyone capable of using a web browser, that means
> Hagar is part of the intended user base, despite his attitude
> towards it.

Joe, your tone is extremely rude and insulting. You want people to
learn/change something? Nobody wants to hear it that way. You wrote it
is Anti-Apache to not use the CMS. I consider it Anti-Apache the way
you write here.

Maybe the CMS is targeting Hagar. Instead of bashing Hagar for not
using it, probably you should think about why he is not using it and
improve the CMS. It is not so easy as a wiki. If you really think that
than you are clearly wrong (and I say that even when I start to like
it). If you need/want help with that, lets incubate the CMS.

Not every committer can deal with a CMS and this is actually no entry
barrier to become a committer. You can become a committer for other
reasons the technology, CMS use and such, like responding on the Forum
or writing valuable blog posts. Saying otherwise is just wrong. Hagar
has the same limited time for this project as many other people around
and he wants to spend it with other tasks. I really cannot find a
problem here and people haven shown that they can share their workload
and do it as a team - this IS the apache way. We are not alone on a
project and yes, you can ask other people to help you.


> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Andrea Pescetti <>
>> To:
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 5:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: Java download link on AOO site
>> Hagar Delest wrote:
>>>  Le jeu. 12 juil. 2012 21:19:50 CEST, Joe Schaefer
>>>  a écrit :
>>>>  Hagar is a committer, that comes both with certain rights and certain
>>>>  responsibilities, the latter of which is to not bother others with work
>>>>  he can carry out effectively himself.
>>>  Don't tell me that since I'm a committer I've to comply with
>> all the
>>>  package that goes with it. Why doesn't Apache adapt to a project that
>> is
>>>  rather new for it, doing with a large user base and side areas like
>>>  forums, NL teams, ...?
>> More than an "Apache way vs OpenOffice tradition" fight, this is about
>> the role of volunteers. I find it perfectly acceptable that a volunteer chooses
>> certain areas due to personal inclinations and neglects other non-vital areas:
>> volunteering is supposed to be fun in the end. Likely, most committers have (or
>> can reach) the technical knowledge to fix bugs, but this would be highly
>> ineffective for most of them, and "Please learn C++ and fix it
>> yourself" has been regarded so far, and should still be regarded, as
>> offensive towards someone who is just reporting a bug or doing QA.
>>>  So let's me say that I'm now really fed up with your lessons.
>>>  So do what you want, I don't care. But forget about new blog posts from
>> me.
>> I hope this eventually is forgotten and Hagar's contributions can continue
>> as usual, but I'd say this is a natural outcome of this conversation. What
>> else could come out of it? And do we really need this kind of discussions? The
>> PPMC votes committers in because of merit, and it's very rare that a
>> candidate's merits span all over the project: most times one can do a very
>> relevant contribution by helping in the one area of the project he likes most
>> (be it user support on the forums, or on the mailing lists, or localization, or
>> programming...).
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.


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