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From Hagar Delest <>
Subject Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Date Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:10:13 GMT
Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such thing.
I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the deal is that I've to
like it. I give my time to help users because I find some fun in it.
So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this simple fact, there
is no point discussing further.

If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it myself too? I think not.
And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report for the forums on the blog (meaning
a new account to handle, a new tool and a new responsibility). Which is something that I don't
greatly enjoy.

I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I thought there would be
some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could be fun to contribute to it.
But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it would be a good thing to report a problem),
then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.

As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the dev & private mailing
lists right now. Please close my Roller account too (something I can't JFDI I guess).

Good luck to the developers.


Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 21:06:32 CEST, Joe Schaefer <> a écrit

> What specific skill do you think is required that
> the average citizen who participates on this mailing
> list does not already possess?  Perhaps the receptacle
> system is foreign to you personally, but other members of
> this communityhave documented how they work. There's
> even tutorials running about here and there about how
> to deal with trash on the site.  All anyone expects
> someone like you is to make an effort to apply the pre-written
> documentationto your own circumstances.  I have little doubt
> the forumswork in the same way.  If you are having trouble
> locating the documentation that's something we can all
> work on together.
> Fixing a busted link on a website is a trash cleanup
> activity.  If you are unsure whether or not it is
> a change others will agree with then opening a discussion
> about it is fine.  However, website changes are CTR and
> expecting other citizens to take the result of an RTC
> conversation and clean up the trash on your behalf is not
> exactly enlightened self-interest at work.  I've personally
> witnessed individuals with severe mental and physical disabilities
> follow the same instructions with success that I am expecting
> you to follow in the future.  As others have witnessed to you,
> your peers who have tried for themselves have not found the process
> intellectually challenging enough to file formal complaints with
> infra or with this project.
> You can do this. Everyone on this list can do this.  All I'm
> challenging people to do is to make an effort, I don't think I'm
> expecting a miracle.
>> ________________________________
>> From: Hagar Delest <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>> This comparison is pure nonsense.
>> Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call
for any discussion about it.
>> Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong
>> First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not
(because there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
>> Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool,
then get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
>> Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
>> See the difference?
>> Hagar
>> Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <>
a écrit :
>>> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
>>> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
>>> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
>>> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>>> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
>>> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
>>> in.   What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
>>> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
>>> bit of trash in the park?
>>> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
>>> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
>>> activities ignoring the trash.
>>> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
>>> should do something about that trash.  Lemme go ask the park ranger
>>> to clean it up."  Eventually the park ranger might do something
>>> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
>>> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
>>> locations.  Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
>>> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
>>> Thanks.  I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
>>> of cleaning up after themselves."
>>> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
>>> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash.  They might then complain
>>> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
>>> more help.
>>> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
>>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up.  Not a bad thing
>>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>>> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
>>> react differently to the park ranger's advice.  They realize the trash
>>> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
>>> ranger is equipped to deal with.  They will work alongside the park
>>> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
>>> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
>>> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
>>> aware of without fuss.  Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
>>> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
>>> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.

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