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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Subject RE: Terms of Service on Forums
Date Thu, 05 Jul 2012 17:25:54 GMT
Let's step back a little.

The markup that I created was designed to morph the Oracle terms of service to one that was
similar but modified to use of ASF as the HOST and eliminate those considerations that do
not apply (e.g., the use of distinct projects on the web site) under ASF custodianship.

This approach was so folks could compare with what was already in place and produce a harmonious
replacement.

I'm not a lawyer and not prepared to say what is too much or too little.  I agree that plain
language statements are preferable.  My favorite document of this kind is, after all, the
Creative Commons Attribution Deed 2.0.

However, there are some essential considerations, it seems to me:

 1. Privacy should probably be separated as is commonplace on sites of this kind.  Privacy
should extend beyond what is done to support performance of the site and what the monitoring
is, to embrace more clearly what is done with anything that is considered personally-identifiable
information.  In particular, the reliance on email addresses being made visible as a policy
is something that users need to be aware of and why, and the need to be able to contact people
by the e-mail address provided is also a matter of concern.  
    If there is any kind of promise to be careful with personal data, that needs to be made
in a way that the ASF can demonstrate diligence about and the ASF needs to be aware of the
obligation the promise represents.  
    Privacy statements should be dated and back versions should be accessible.

 2. The Terms of Use should be clear about what the HOST (the ASF) is granting generally to
users of the site and what contributors to the site are granting to the HOST and all Users,
absent any clearly-established special cases (licenses, contribution agreements, etc.).  The
outgoing license is a clear condition of a TOU and not having one for readers of general web
pages seems erroneious.  The actions that the HOST will take without notice and at its own
discretion need to be clear also.
    In this case, I think that the terms of use definitely need to be dated and back issues
available.

<orcmid comments="more in-line below"/>

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 06:50
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Terms of Service on Forums

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
[ ... ]
> I created an issue that proposed a new terms of use that was consistent with the Oracle
ones for ASF and would have not made this problem worse, as far as I can tell.  That was long
ago and it went nowhere.  The JIRA issue is here: <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-104>.
 Here's the connected issue on our Bugzilla: <https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118518>.
 I came to our Bugzilla because LEGAL-104 can't have attachments.  The attachment on the Bugzilla
provides a red-lined transformation of the Oracle ToU into one that could work for the forums,
wikis, and web pages now under ASF custodianship.
>

OK.  I read that over.  IMHO it is still too much.   It is dressed up
in chain mail armour, as befits a big corporation with the risk
profile of a big corporation.  Large corporations are a magnet for
petty lawsuits.   But the circumstances are different with the ASF.
Our main concern is (or should be) clarity and helpfulness to the
reader, not to protect our multi-billion dollar corporation.  I''d
also entirely separate the outgoing license question.  This is not a
ToU question.  That can be covered separate by a "license" link on the
various websites, which might be simple in some case (incubator site
is 100% ALv2) and less so on some legacy sites.

<orcmid>
  What do you mean by the incubator site?  I disagree about ALv2 
 for http://www.openoffice.org since the honoring of ALv2 is more 
 restrictive/intrusive than the incoming grant of legacy material 
 requires.  Furthermore, patent non-assertions were never collected.
</orcmid>

So a minimal approach might look something like this, which could be
applied across all of our websites:

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Consolidated Terms of Use for Apache OpenOffice Websites

The Apache Software Foundation hosts several websites on behalf of the
Apache OpenOffice project:

-- under openoffice.org

- under incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg

- under cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS

- under issues.apache.org/ooo/

-- under blogs.apache.org/ooo/

By your use of these websites you acknowledge that you have read these
Terms and agree to them.

<orcmid>
  I think it should apply to the site being accessed and from which the 
  ToU is linked. Also, the "By your use ..." without even a click-through
  the claim of reading and agreement is about as corporate as it gets
  and indefensible.
</orcmid>
  


1. Privacy

[ ... ]

Additionally, some of websites  have a user registration systems that
queries you for information such as name, password and email address.
 This information is collected, stored and used in order to provide
you a unique login and to associate that login with your activity on
the website.  We endeavour keep this information private, but it may
be revealed to a competent authority under a lawful order.

By using this website, you consent to the collection of this data in
the manner and for the purpose described above.

<orcmid>
  This might need to be separated for what the agreement is when people
  register/subscribe and provide information solicited to accomplish
  that.
    This seems like too broad an umbrella for what happens when folks 
  register versus what happens when accessing sites versus what happens 
  when sending an e-mail somewhere.
</orcmid>


2. User submitted content

By submitting content to the website, you agree that this content may
be hosted on the website, for the benefit of other website users.
Additionally, you agree that your submissions may be edited, modified,
translated, copied, within the website.  You warrant that you have
sufficient rights to any content that you submit to the website
necessary to grant the above license.

<orcmid>
  The "within the website" basically provides no outgoing license to
  the contribution.  The Oracle ToU is not clear about that, but a
  counterpart to the incoming license would be very good there.
  I would not allow stipulation of broader licenses.  That makes this
  all impossible and is sort of anti-community, it seems to me.
</orcmid>

If you wish to offer a broader license, to allow 3rd parties to reuse
your content outside of this website, then you may do so, provided the
license is compatible with the above requirements.  Apache License 2.0
is especially recommended.   Please mark the license prominently in
your contribution.

<orcmid>
  To emphasize, this is too burdensome and it creates a problem around
  permissible use and who determines what that is.  Having bits and
  pieces under individual license notices makes no sense.  
    It might be useful to have the conditions for submission to the
  site be at a place where submissions can happen, and deal more with
  what the outgoing license is in the absence of any notice to the
  contrary.
</orcmid>

3. Exclusions

The websites at extensions.openoffice.org and templates.openoffice.org
are not operated by the Apache Software Foundation and are not covered
by this Terms.

4. Changes to these Terms

We may change these Terms from time to time.  When we make substantive
changes we will also make an announcement on the ooo-announce mailing
list.

<orcmid>
  These definitely need to be versioned and the older versions archived.
  I favor having references back to the previous one in a chain
  that anyone can chase.
</orcmid>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[ ... ]


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