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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:18:01 +0800
Message-ID: 
 <CAPzejYjvjoh9xY1yh-E0BcyVTzs=tCiGXwesyrizBWQdQ2LySQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members
From: Yong Lin Ma <mayongl@apache.org>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org, dennis.hamilton@acm.org
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On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:08 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
> I just realized that there is a principle around the election of committe=
rs that may have been lost sight of.
>

Where can I find the principle in detail?

> Here is something to consider:
>
> The classical case for someone becoming a committer is that they can more=
-easily do something they are already doing. =C2=A0The usual example: inste=
ad of submitting patches that have to be reviewed and committed by someone =
else, a committer is empowered to apply patches directly to the SVN.
>

Becoming a committer also means more responsibility and more self-governmen=
t.
Just to developer, if you already get committer rights, I urge you to
get your work reviewed by someone else if possible before getting it
into SVN.


> The Apache OpenOffice project also has need for committers in conjunction=
 with governance responsibilities (such as oversight of the Community Forum=
s) or infrastructure work (e.g., administering the MediaWiki server) and be=
ing on the PMC for supporting confidential matters (including ooo-security)=
 and having accountability for oversight.
>
> In looking at someone whose contributions are clear, the next question is=
, I think, where do they fit in the above picture? =C2=A0If being a committ=
er (or a PPMC member) is inessential to the work being done, it seems inapp=
ropriate to confer committer privileges. =C2=A0I think neither PPMC (next: =
PMC) membership nor committer status should be viewed as ceremonial achieve=
ments.
>
> =C2=A0- Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mayongl@gmail.com [mailto:mayongl@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Yong Lin =
Ma
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 22:50
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC member=
s
>
> A specific question. What is the criteria for a QE member to become a com=
mitter?
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote=
:
>>
>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wr=
ote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My question/concern at this point would be --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members=
 on
>>>> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not =
all.
>>>> I think that from now on this project should always have separate vote=
s as
>>>> a matter of policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different
>>>>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it will depend on the individual. =C2=A0 Consider three types of
>>>> contributors:
>>>>>
>>>>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache
>>>>>
>>>>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from
>>>>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another
>>>>> project
>>>>>
>>>>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate th=
e
>>>>> necessary skills these roles. =C2=A0In the first category, the experi=
enced
>>>>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly,
>>>>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way. =C2=A0But in the ot=
her
>>>>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case),
>>>>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer
>>>>> period of time,
>>>>>
>>>>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles.
>>>>
>>>> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in
>>>> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, =
with
>>> the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we mis=
s
>>> participation in some arenas.
>>
>> We certainly will.
>>
>>>
>>> I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a curren=
t
>>> PPMC member (or two) has =C2=A0their fingers in several areas.
>>
>> It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encou=
rage contributors. The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who l=
ook likely. Committers can send suggestions to ooo-private along with the a=
reas of contribution and interested PMC members can look for sustained effo=
rt.
>>
>>>
>>> A discussion for another time perhaps.
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Consider
>>>> (a) Committers on another project.
>>>> (b) PMC members on another project.
>>>>
>>>> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on anoth=
er
>>>> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the pr=
ior
>>>> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good ide=
a for
>>>> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the
>>>> "Initial Committer" list.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>> If there were a way to make people members of the
>>>>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that
>>>>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically
>>>>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not
>>>>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to
>>>>> committers by default.
>>>>
>>>> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentri=
c
>>>> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors tha=
t
>>>> differ from project to project.
>>>>
>>>
>>> definitely +1 on this.
>>>
>>> Committers first...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need=
 to
>>>> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pedro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayongl@gmail.com> =C2=A0ha scritto:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of
>>>>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all
>>>>>>>>> contributors get
>>>>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>>>> member is here
>>>>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for
>>>>>>>>> committer and
>>>>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time.
>>>>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A comment from Rob:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project,
>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc,
>>>>>>>>> support.=EF=BF=BD This
>>>>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.=EF=BF=BD We need to do a better
>>>>>>>>> job giving
>>>>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.=EF=BF=BD If
>>>>>>>>> the feeling is
>>>>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a
>>>>>>>>> PPMC member,
>>>>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:=EF=BF=BD Do we
>>>>>>>>> trust their judgement
>>>>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?=EF=BF=BD The
>>>>>>>>> move from
>>>>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be
>>>>>>>>> reviewed)
>>>>>>>>> to CTR.=EF=BF=BD So we really need to have a sense that they
>>>>>>>>> are doing quality
>>>>>>>>> work.=EF=BF=BD Committers also have veto rights on all of our
>>>>>>>>> commits.=EF=BF=BD So we
>>>>>>>>> need to trust their judgement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:=EF=BF=BD Do they
>>>>>>>>> understand The
>>>>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On
>>>>>>>>> average are
>>>>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are
>>>>>>>>> causing?=EF=BF=BD Are they
>>>>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?=EF=BF=BD When we
>>>>>>>>> graduate, and our
>>>>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively
>>>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.=EF=BF=BD So I think the PMC
>>>>>>>>> is more about
>>>>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical
>>>>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3
>>>>>>>>> at the same
>>>>>>>>> time.=EF=BF=BD But probably not in every case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note:=EF=BF=BD This is not how we have operated
>>>>>>>>> previously.=EF=BF=BD I think there was
>>>>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC
>>>>>>>>> suitably large
>>>>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.=EF=BF=BD We also obviously
>>>>>>>>> started with a PPMC
>>>>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand
>>>>>>>>> Apache.=EF=BF=BD That is the
>>>>>>>>> nature of Incubation.=EF=BF=BD But I don't think this approach
>>>>>>>>> is necessarily
>>>>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we
>>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>>> graduation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>>>>>> MzK
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>>>>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>>>>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>>>>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>>>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------
>>> MzK
>>>
>>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
>>
>