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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:30:50 -0700
Message-ID: 
 <CAGj3215oR8oPYHPdz-gkErcvXm7qtCxS81L7w_LcgfLFHuhHsA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Guidelines for list conduct policy
From: Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
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On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Wolf Halton <wolf.halton@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Wolf Halton <wolf.halton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 7:42 PM, drew <drew@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 16:21 -0700, Kay Schenk wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:33 PM, drew <drew@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 00:14 +0200, RGB ES wrote:
> >> > > > 2012/6/20 drew jensen <drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>:
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> List Conduct Policy
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>    1.
> >> > > > >>    What Happens on the list, stays on the list:
> >> > > > >>    Anything you read in the private list is by default a
> private
> >> PPMC
> >> > > > >>    affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other people
> >> who are
> >> > > not in
> >> > > > >>    the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads
> probably
> >> > > should
> >> > > > >> be in
> >> > > > >>    the public lists, except choosing committers and PPMC
> >> members, and
> >> > > a very
> >> > > > >>    few other topics.
> >> > > > >>    In fact, all email lists or email conversations have this
> >> aspect of
> >> > > > >>    privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the list, =
it
> >> is
> >> > > assumed
> >> > > > >>    that privacy will be maintained and a list member's name a=
nd
> >> > > location
> >> > > > >> will
> >> > > > >>    not be disclosed in some public venue where personal priva=
cy
> >> is not
> >> > > > >> expected,
> >> > > > >>    such as published in a newspaper or some other.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > hi,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I would disagree with that last statement completely - a publi=
c
> >> list is
> >> > > > > just that, public, and there should be absolutely no expectati=
on
> >> of
> >> > > > > privacy whatsoever. To pretend otherwise is simply to lie to
> >> those who
> >> > > > > would use the list.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > //drew
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Point one refers to the private lists, I think.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Maybe add a "point zero" with an introduction to the mailing
> lists,
> >> as
> >> > > > Ross asked? Not a detailed introduction, just to say most lists
> are
> >> > > > public but one is private. Then the "code of conduct" can be
> >> separated
> >> > > > on a "general part" that apply to all lists and a second part wi=
th
> >> > > > additional rules (for instance, the privacy one) for the private
> >> list.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Ricardo
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > OK if that is really just about private lists, but the last senten=
ce
> >> > > read to me as if it was broader.
> >> > >
> >> > > Anyway - to be honest I find the whole subject rather silly. Does
> >> anyone
> >> > > really need to be told that what happens on a private list is by
> >> > > definition to be held in confidence?
> >> > >
> >> > > //drew
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > Well, Drew, I think this is why this whole discussion started. Most =
of
> >> us
> >> > would think the answer to your question is "no", but, well, apparent=
ly
> >> > there was some looser interpretation that some felt needed
> >>  clarification.
> >>
> >> Not at all - someone violated that trust, everyone knew it was wrong,
> >> there didn't need to be rules written for folks to know that.
> >>
> >> But that is just my opinion of course.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, Wolf, this is really good. I think this would be better post=
ed
> >> as
> >> > just a link on the project site,
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/,
> >> > under the Mailing Lists link, and give more clarification on item #1
> >> that
> >> > this most importantly applies to private mailing lists. Drew's right
> >> that
> >> > we don't want to mislead people to think anything else is private.
> >> >
> >> > I think maybe it's a bit lengthy to add to a "welcome" message to li=
st
> >> > subscribers.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > The #1 entry is the most "reactionary" meaning it is in reaction to an
> > event or events which we as a group never want to see again, and such i=
s
> > probably a dangerous step toward totalitarianism.  I, and others  have
> > defanged it somewhat.  I know it needs to be clarified to limit its sco=
pe
> > to only the private lists or specifically the PPMC list and Security
> list.
> > Maybe that paragraph should be #7 and something else should be at the
> top,
> > as there are only a small percentage who are members of the PPMC/Securi=
ty
> > and a lot more who are part of dev@ or Users@ or marketing@ etc..
> >
> > -Wolf
> >
> >
> > --
> > This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> > Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
> > Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
> > Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
> >
> >
> Here is the adjusted version:
> I put Dave's #7 as #0 and a reminder of the AOO mission and implications
> thereof as #1. The private-lists entry is now at the bottom.
>
> -Wolf
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> List Conduct Policy
>
>   1.
>
>   Respect one another:
>   Discussion is the cornerstone of a project like this and the sharing of
>   viewpoints is crucial, as is understanding and accepting that many view=
s
>   will differ from your own. By all means debate rigorously and defend yo=
ur
>   view point stoutly, but avoid abrasive dialogue and personal attacks.
> Give
>   leeway to people who do not have English as a first language. Pause
> before
>   taking insult, and pause before responding. There is a difference betwe=
en
>   robust discussion and steamrollering. Civility is paramount. Manners co=
st
>   nothing; we are all capable of self-moderation, and of being aware of o=
ur
>   conduct.
>    2.
>
>   Remember the Apache OpenOffice Mission:
>   =93To create, as a community, the leading international office suite th=
at
>   will run on all major platforms and provide access to all functionality
> and
>   data through open-component based APIs and an XML-based file format.=94
>   The AOO project is a place for finding open-source solutions to documen=
t
>   creation and consumption. We believe in making AOO freely available
> because
>   we are the sort of people who welcome diversity on others, creativity o=
f
>   all sorts and who enjoy finding the best in all situations.
>    3.
>
>   Be Nice:
>   Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
>    not English, there are busy readers, who by necessity have to read
> things
>    quickly. If other list members are telling you they do not understand
> what
>   you wrote, or take your innocent phrasing in a poor light, take it as a
>   signal that your writing style is too idiomatic or too technical
> (unlikely
>   but possible) for others to follow easily.  This does not necessarily
> mean
>    you are mean, wrong and bad, so just be nice and reword the passage.
>   Assume people are not in "attack mode." We are all on the same team her=
e.
>    4.
>
>   Don't Respond When You are Angry:
>   Assuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
>   just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
>   hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
> you
>   yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to explain your
>   point clearly.
>    5.
>
>   Relax:
>   Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing get=
s
>   decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wai=
t
>   until morning.  You might even get lucky, and when you check back
> somebody
>   else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
>   enough that you can work with it.
>   Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
>   list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
> different
>   time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond no more than
> once
>   per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest frequency o=
f
>   responses does not necessarily =93Win=94 in a community of equals. The =
most
>    concise and useful post tends to win, because furthering the dialog an=
d
>   advancing the community's goals is what we desire.
>   6.
>
>   Get to the point:
>   Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
>    people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
>   ending up defensive, but balance is needed. Do not let brevity get in t=
he
>   way of providing enough information. Remember that people must understa=
nd
>   your post in order to understand your point.
>    7.
>
>   Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
>   People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
>   frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff th=
ey
>   have already read.  To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the
> post
>   to which one is replying that are not important to understand ones repl=
y.
>   If the response to one of these posts is, =93What? I do not understand,=
=94
> then
>   it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.
>    8.
>
>   What happens on a private list, stays on that list:
>   There are only a few private lists on the project. The PPMC list and th=
e
>   Security Team list come to mind. Anything you read in a private list is
> by
>   default a private affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other
>   people who are not members of that private list.
>   9.
>
>   There are going to be exceptions to the rule:
>   All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
>    A person posting child porn on any Apache.org or Apache OpenOffice lis=
t
>    will be reported to the appropriate authorities and will not be able t=
o
>   complain that their list privacy has been violated.
>   Ramping up to a release, there are a lot of postings at high frequency.
>   Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.
>
>
>
>
>
> More Useful Stuff:
>
> Apache Tips for Email Contributors =96
> <http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html
>
> Apache OpenOffice Mailing Lists =96
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html<
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html>
>
>
good, +1


>
>  =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
> --
> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
> Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
> Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
>


--=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------
MzK

"Known commonly as the jackass, this long-eared little creature
is respected throughout the southwest=97roundly cursed
yet respected=97and here he is usually referred to by his
Spanish name, burro. Because of his extraordinary bray,
he is sometimes ironically called the "Arizona Nightingale."

                     -- "Arizona, the Grand Canyon State: A State Guide",
                              By Federal Writers' Project

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