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From Yong Lin Ma <mayo...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members
Date Wed, 13 Jun 2012 05:50:24 GMT
A specific question. What is the criteria for a QE member to become a committer?


On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My question/concern at this point would be --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice?
>>>>>
>>>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members
on
>>> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all.
>>> I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes as
>>> a matter of policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do others think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different
>>>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome.
>>>>
>>>> But it will depend on the individual.   Consider three types of
>>> contributors:
>>>>
>>>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache
>>>>
>>>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from
>>>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another
>>>> project
>>>>
>>>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache
>>>>
>>>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the
>>>> necessary skills these roles.  In the first category, the experienced
>>>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly,
>>>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way.  But in the other
>>>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case),
>>>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer
>>>> period of time,
>>>>
>>>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles.
>>>
>>> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in
>>> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case.
>>>
>>
>> Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with
>> the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss
>> participation in some arenas.
>
> We certainly will.
>
>>
>> I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current
>> PPMC member (or two) has  their fingers in several areas.
>
> It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage contributors.
The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look likely. Committers can send suggestions
to ooo-private along with the areas of contribution and interested PMC members can look for
sustained effort.
>
>>
>> A discussion for another time perhaps.
>
> Yes.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>>>
>>> Consider
>>> (a) Committers on another project.
>>> (b) PMC members on another project.
>>>
>>> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another
>>> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior
>>> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea for
>>> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the
>>> "Initial Committer" list.
>>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>> If there were a way to make people members of the
>>>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that
>>>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically
>>>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not
>>>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to
>>>> committers by default.
>>>
>>> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric
>>> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that
>>> differ from project to project.
>>>
>>
>> definitely +1 on this.
>>
>> Committers first...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to
>>> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pedro.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayongl@gmail.com>  ha scritto:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of
>>>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all
>>>>>>>> contributors get
>>>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>>> member is here
>>>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for
>>>>>>>> committer and
>>>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time.
>>>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A comment from Rob:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project,
>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc,
>>>>>>>> support.� This
>>>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better
>>>>>>>> job giving
>>>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If
>>>>>>>> the feeling is
>>>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a
>>>>>>>> PPMC member,
>>>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we
>>>>>>>> trust their judgement
>>>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The
>>>>>>>> move from
>>>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must
be
>>>>>>>> reviewed)
>>>>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they
>>>>>>>> are doing quality
>>>>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our
>>>>>>>> commits.� So we
>>>>>>>> need to trust their judgement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they
>>>>>>>> understand The
>>>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On
>>>>>>>> average are
>>>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are
>>>>>>>> causing?� Are they
>>>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we
>>>>>>>> graduate, and our
>>>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively
>>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC
>>>>>>>> is more about
>>>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical
>>>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and
3
>>>>>>>> at the same
>>>>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated
>>>>>>>> previously.� I think there was
>>>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC
>>>>>>>> suitably large
>>>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously
>>>>>>>> started with a PPMC
>>>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand
>>>>>>>> Apache.� That is the
>>>>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach
>>>>>>>> is necessarily
>>>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we
>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>> graduation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> MzK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>>>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>>>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>>>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>>>>>         -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>                               -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
>

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