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From Kay Schenk <kay.sch...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Guidelines for list conduct policy
Date Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:30:50 GMT
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Wolf Halton <wolf.halton@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Wolf Halton <wolf.halton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 7:42 PM, drew <drew@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 16:21 -0700, Kay Schenk wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:33 PM, drew <drew@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 00:14 +0200, RGB ES wrote:
> >> > > > 2012/6/20 drew jensen <drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>:
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> List Conduct Policy
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>    1.
> >> > > > >>    What Happens on the list, stays on the list:
> >> > > > >>    Anything you read in the private list is by default
a
> private
> >> PPMC
> >> > > > >>    affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other
people
> >> who are
> >> > > not in
> >> > > > >>    the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads
> probably
> >> > > should
> >> > > > >> be in
> >> > > > >>    the public lists, except choosing committers and
PPMC
> >> members, and
> >> > > a very
> >> > > > >>    few other topics.
> >> > > > >>    In fact, all email lists or email conversations have
this
> >> aspect of
> >> > > > >>    privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the
list, it
> >> is
> >> > > assumed
> >> > > > >>    that privacy will be maintained and a list member's
name and
> >> > > location
> >> > > > >> will
> >> > > > >>    not be disclosed in some public venue where personal
privacy
> >> is not
> >> > > > >> expected,
> >> > > > >>    such as published in a newspaper or some other.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > hi,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I would disagree with that last statement completely - a
public
> >> list is
> >> > > > > just that, public, and there should be absolutely no expectation
> >> of
> >> > > > > privacy whatsoever. To pretend otherwise is simply to lie
to
> >> those who
> >> > > > > would use the list.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > //drew
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Point one refers to the private lists, I think.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Maybe add a "point zero" with an introduction to the mailing
> lists,
> >> as
> >> > > > Ross asked? Not a detailed introduction, just to say most lists
> are
> >> > > > public but one is private. Then the "code of conduct" can be
> >> separated
> >> > > > on a "general part" that apply to all lists and a second part
with
> >> > > > additional rules (for instance, the privacy one) for the private
> >> list.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Ricardo
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > OK if that is really just about private lists, but the last sentence
> >> > > read to me as if it was broader.
> >> > >
> >> > > Anyway - to be honest I find the whole subject rather silly. Does
> >> anyone
> >> > > really need to be told that what happens on a private list is by
> >> > > definition to be held in confidence?
> >> > >
> >> > > //drew
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > Well, Drew, I think this is why this whole discussion started. Most of
> >> us
> >> > would think the answer to your question is "no", but, well, apparently
> >> > there was some looser interpretation that some felt needed
> >>  clarification.
> >>
> >> Not at all - someone violated that trust, everyone knew it was wrong,
> >> there didn't need to be rules written for folks to know that.
> >>
> >> But that is just my opinion of course.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Anyway, Wolf, this is really good. I think this would be better posted
> >> as
> >> > just a link on the project site,
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/,
> >> > under the Mailing Lists link, and give more clarification on item #1
> >> that
> >> > this most importantly applies to private mailing lists. Drew's right
> >> that
> >> > we don't want to mislead people to think anything else is private.
> >> >
> >> > I think maybe it's a bit lengthy to add to a "welcome" message to list
> >> > subscribers.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > The #1 entry is the most "reactionary" meaning it is in reaction to an
> > event or events which we as a group never want to see again, and such is
> > probably a dangerous step toward totalitarianism.  I, and others  have
> > defanged it somewhat.  I know it needs to be clarified to limit its scope
> > to only the private lists or specifically the PPMC list and Security
> list.
> > Maybe that paragraph should be #7 and something else should be at the
> top,
> > as there are only a small percentage who are members of the PPMC/Security
> > and a lot more who are part of dev@ or Users@ or marketing@ etc..
> >
> > -Wolf
> >
> >
> > --
> > This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> > Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
> > Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
> > Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
> >
> >
> Here is the adjusted version:
> I put Dave's #7 as #0 and a reminder of the AOO mission and implications
> thereof as #1. The private-lists entry is now at the bottom.
>
> -Wolf
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> List Conduct Policy
>
>   1.
>
>   Respect one another:
>   Discussion is the cornerstone of a project like this and the sharing of
>   viewpoints is crucial, as is understanding and accepting that many views
>   will differ from your own. By all means debate rigorously and defend your
>   view point stoutly, but avoid abrasive dialogue and personal attacks.
> Give
>   leeway to people who do not have English as a first language. Pause
> before
>   taking insult, and pause before responding. There is a difference between
>   robust discussion and steamrollering. Civility is paramount. Manners cost
>   nothing; we are all capable of self-moderation, and of being aware of our
>   conduct.
>    2.
>
>   Remember the Apache OpenOffice Mission:
>   “To create, as a community, the leading international office suite that
>   will run on all major platforms and provide access to all functionality
> and
>   data through open-component based APIs and an XML-based file format.”
>   The AOO project is a place for finding open-source solutions to document
>   creation and consumption. We believe in making AOO freely available
> because
>   we are the sort of people who welcome diversity on others, creativity of
>   all sorts and who enjoy finding the best in all situations.
>    3.
>
>   Be Nice:
>   Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
>    not English, there are busy readers, who by necessity have to read
> things
>    quickly. If other list members are telling you they do not understand
> what
>   you wrote, or take your innocent phrasing in a poor light, take it as a
>   signal that your writing style is too idiomatic or too technical
> (unlikely
>   but possible) for others to follow easily.  This does not necessarily
> mean
>    you are mean, wrong and bad, so just be nice and reword the passage.
>   Assume people are not in "attack mode." We are all on the same team here.
>    4.
>
>   Don't Respond When You are Angry:
>   Assuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
>   just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
>   hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
> you
>   yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to explain your
>   point clearly.
>    5.
>
>   Relax:
>   Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing gets
>   decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wait
>   until morning.  You might even get lucky, and when you check back
> somebody
>   else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
>   enough that you can work with it.
>   Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
>   list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
> different
>   time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond no more than
> once
>   per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest frequency of
>   responses does not necessarily “Win” in a community of equals. The most
>    concise and useful post tends to win, because furthering the dialog and
>   advancing the community's goals is what we desire.
>   6.
>
>   Get to the point:
>   Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
>    people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
>   ending up defensive, but balance is needed. Do not let brevity get in the
>   way of providing enough information. Remember that people must understand
>   your post in order to understand your point.
>    7.
>
>   Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
>   People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
>   frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff they
>   have already read.  To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the
> post
>   to which one is replying that are not important to understand ones reply.
>   If the response to one of these posts is, “What? I do not understand,”
> then
>   it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.
>    8.
>
>   What happens on a private list, stays on that list:
>   There are only a few private lists on the project. The PPMC list and the
>   Security Team list come to mind. Anything you read in a private list is
> by
>   default a private affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other
>   people who are not members of that private list.
>   9.
>
>   There are going to be exceptions to the rule:
>   All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
>    A person posting child porn on any Apache.org or Apache OpenOffice list
>    will be reported to the appropriate authorities and will not be able to
>   complain that their list privacy has been violated.
>   Ramping up to a release, there are a lot of postings at high frequency.
>   Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.
>
>
>
>
>
> More Useful Stuff:
>
> Apache Tips for Email Contributors –
> <http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html>
> http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html
>
> Apache OpenOffice Mailing Lists –
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html<
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html>
>
>
good, +1



>
>  =============================
>
>
> --
> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
> Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
> Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
>



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"Known commonly as the jackass, this long-eared little creature
is respected throughout the southwest—roundly cursed
yet respected—and here he is usually referred to by his
Spanish name, burro. Because of his extraordinary bray,
he is sometimes ironically called the "Arizona Nightingale."

                     -- "Arizona, the Grand Canyon State: A State Guide",
                              By Federal Writers' Project

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