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From David McKay <dmc...@btconnect.com>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Guidelines for list conduct policy
Date Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:32:19 GMT

On 19/06/12 21:26, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Top posting as I'm not commenting on the text itself. I'd like to request
> that this document clarifies the purpose of the private list - we don't
> want to give the  impression that the project conducts essential business
> on the private list.
(My new text amendments are at the bottom.)

That would make sense - but these are guidelines for all AOO mailing 
lists, aren't they?
This isn't specific to the ooo-private?

Dave.
> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
> On Jun 16, 2012 4:26 PM, "Wolf Halton"<wolf.halton@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> This is a draft with the additions from the group, for a lazy consensus.
>> I am envisioning that the final draft can be added to the sign-in progress
>> for the various mailing-lists and also as a link to the project
>> mailing-list page.
>>
>> I have not included any pieces about what happens to an individual who does
>> not abide by the general group agreements, as that has not been discussed
>> here yet.
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>>
>> List Conduct Policy
>>
>>    1.
>>
>>    What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas:
>>    Anything you read in the private list is by default a private PPMC
>>    affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to other people who are not in
>>    the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads probably should be
>> in
>>    the public lists, except choosing committers and PPMC members, and a very
>>    few others.
>>    In fact, all email lists or email conversations have this aspect of
>>    privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the list, it is assumed
>>    that privacy will be maintained and a list member's name and location
>> will
>>    not be published in a newspaper or some other public venue where personal
>>    privacy is not expected.
>>    2.
>>
>>    Be Nice:
>>    Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
>>    not English, there are busy hurried readers.  If other list members are
>>    telling you they do not understand what you wrote, or take your innocent
>>    phasing in a poor light, take it as a signal that your writing style is
>> too
>>    idiomatic or too technical (unlikely but possible) for others to follow
>>    easily.  This does not necessarily mean you are mean, wrong and bad, so
>>    just be nice and reword the passage.  Assume people are not in "attack
>>    mode." We are all on the same team here.
>>    3.
>>
>>    Don't Respond When You are Angry:
>>    Presuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
>>    just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
>>    hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
>> you
>>    yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to explain your
>>    point clearly.
>>    4.
>>
>>    Relax:
>>    Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing gets
>>    decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wait
>>    until morning.  You might even get lucky, and when you check back
>> somebody
>>    else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
>>    enough that you can work with it.
>>    Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
>>    list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
>> different
>>    time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond no more than
>> once
>>    per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest frequency of
>>    responses does not necessarily “Win” in a community of equals. The most
>>    concise and useful post tends to win, if furthering the dialog and
>>    advancing the community's goals is what we are after..
>>    5.
>>
>>    Get to the Point:
>>    Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
>>    people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
>>    ending up defensive.
>>    6.
>>
>>    Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
>>    People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
>>    frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff they
>>    have already read.  To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the
>> post
>>    to which one is replying that are not important to understand ones reply.
>>    If the response to one of these posts is, “What? I do not understand,”
>> then
>>    it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.
>>    7.
>>
>>    There are Going to be Exceptions to the Rule:
>>    All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
>>    A person posting child porn on this list will be reported to the
>>    appropriate authorities and will not be able to complain that their list
>>    privacy has been violated.
>>    Ramping up to a release, there are a lot of postings at high frequency.
>>    Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> More Useful Stuff:
>>
>> Apache Tips for Email Contributors –
>> <http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html>
>> http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html
>>
>> Apache OpenOffice Mailing Lists –
>> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html<
>> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html>
>>
>>
>>
>>   ======================
>>
>> --
>> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
>> Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
>> Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
>> Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
>>
I've made slight re-wordings through-out, and added in a new section 7, 
and made the old section 7 section 8.

List Conduct Policy

   1.
   What Happens on the list, stays on the list:
   Anything you read in the private list is by default a private PPMC
   affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other people who are not in
   the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads probably should 
be in
   the public lists, except choosing committers and PPMC members, and a very
   few other topics.
   In fact, all email lists or email conversations have this aspect of
   privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the list, it is assumed
   that privacy will be maintained and a list member's name and location 
will
   not be disclosed in some public venue where personal privacy is not 
expected,
   such as published in a newspaper or some other.

   2.
   Be Nice:
   Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
   not English, there are busy readers, who  by neccesity have to read 
things
   quickly.  If other list members are telling you they do not 
understand what
   you wrote, or take your innocent phrasing in a poor light, take it as 
a signal
   that your writing style is too idiomatic or too technical (unlikely 
but possible)
   for others to follow easily.  This does not necessarily mean you are 
mean, wrong
   or bad, so just be nice and rewrite the passage using different 
words. Assume
   people are not in "attack mode". We are all on the same team here.

   3.
   Don't Respond When You are Angry:
   Assuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
   just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
   hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
   you yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to 
explain your
   point clearly.

   4.
   Relax:
   Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing gets
   decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wait
   until morning. You might even get lucky, and when you check back somebody
   else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
   enough that you can accept that their post covered what you wanted to 
say.
   Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
   list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
   different time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond 
no more than
   once per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest 
frequency of
   responses does not necessarily “Win” in a community of equals. The most
   concise and useful post tends to win, because furthering the dialog and
   advancing the community's goals is what we desire.

   5.
   Get to the Point:
   Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
   people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
   ending up defensive, but balance is needed. Do not let brevity get in
   the way of providing enough information. Remember that people must
   understand your post in order to understand your point.

   6.
   Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
   People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
   frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff they
   have already read. To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the 
post
   to which one is replying that are not important to understand one's 
reply.
   If the response to one of these posts is, “What? I do not 
understand,” then
   it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.

   7.
   Respect one another:
   Discussion is the cornerstone of a project like this and the sharing of
   viewpoints is crucial, as is understanding and accepting that many views
   will differ from your own. By all means debate rigorously and defend your
   view point stoutly, but avoid abrasive dialogue and personal attacks. 
Give
   leeway to people who do not have English as a first language. Pause 
before
   taking insult, and pause before responding. There is a difference 
between
   robust discussion and steamrollering. Civility is paramount. Manners 
cost
   nothing; we are all capable of self-moderation, and of being aware of 
our
   conduct.

   8.
   There are going to be exceptions to the rules:
   All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
   A person posting child porn (say) on this list will be reported to the
   appropriate authorities and will not be able to complain that their list
   privacy has been violated.
   When we're ramping up to a release, there are always a lot of 
postings at
   high frequency. That's normal.
   Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.

Dave.


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