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From Juergen Schmidt <jogischm...@googlemail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members
Date Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:06:28 GMT
Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012 um 07:50 schrieb Yong Lin Ma:
> A specific question. What is the criteria for a QE member to become a committer?
>  
we don't have this dedicated roles here in the project. As an individual you can do everything
you are interested in.

If somebody is interested to focus on QA it's perfect and she/he can do it.

No other criteria in general but maybe more difficult to track.

I would recommend that people talk about their work. Highlight the issues they have found,
describe/explain how they do the work.
Best practices can be for example documented on the wiki.

The community have to be aware of the work and spreading the knowledge about specific QA related
topics is of course a very valuable contribution. It will help others to get started.

Becoming a committer is based on the visible work and contribution that somebody has done
and is doing. You become a committer over time by invitation.

Juergen
>  
>  
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> >  
> > On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> >  
> > > On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
wrote:
> > >  
> > > >  
> > > > On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> > > > > > > > FWIW,
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > The Foundation Roles are explained here:
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > yes, this is standard ASF policy.
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > My question/concern at this point would be --
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice?
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC
members on
> > > > the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not
all.
> > > > I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes
as
> > > > a matter of policy.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > What do others think?
> > > > >  
> > > > > If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different
> > > > > criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome.
> > > > >  
> > > > > But it will depend on the individual.   Consider three types of
> > > > contributors:
> > > > >  
> > > > > -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache
> > > > >  
> > > > > -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from
> > > > > another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another
> > > > > project
> > > > >  
> > > > > - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache
> > > > >  
> > > > > Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate
the
> > > > > necessary skills these roles.  In the first category, the experienced
> > > > > OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly,
> > > > > but will take time to learn about The Apache Way.  But in the other
> > > > > categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case),
> > > > > or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer
> > > > > period of time,
> > > > >  
> > > > > But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles.
> > > >  
> > > > Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in
> > > > category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case.
> > > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with
> > > the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss
> > > participation in some arenas.
> > >  
> >  
> >  
> > We certainly will.
> >  
> > >  
> > > I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current
> > > PPMC member (or two) has  their fingers in several areas.
> > >  
> >  
> >  
> > It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage contributors.
The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look likely. Committers can send suggestions
to ooo-private along with the areas of contribution and interested PMC members can look for
sustained effort.
> >  
> > >  
> > > A discussion for another time perhaps.
> >  
> > Yes.
> >  
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >  
> > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Consider
> > > > (a) Committers on another project.
> > > > (b) PMC members on another project.
> > > >  
> > > > None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another
> > > > Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior
> > > > OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea
for
> > > > a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the
> > > > "Initial Committer" list.
> > > >  
> > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> > > >  
> > > > > ...
> > > > > If there were a way to make people members of the
> > > > > (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that
> > > > > would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically
> > > > > incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not
> > > > > committers but not offer the same opportunity to
> > > > > committers by default.
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric
> > > > circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that
> > > > differ from project to project.
> > > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > definitely +1 on this.
> > >  
> > > Committers first...
> > >  
> > >  
> > > >  
> > > > If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need
to
> > > > hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications.
> > > >  
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dave
> > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > -Rob
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Dave
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Pretty much in line to what you are thinking.
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Pedro.
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayongl@gmail.com>
 ha scritto:
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > This was a discussion about rules of
> > > > > > > > > voting for new committer and PPMC
> > > > > > > > > member. We think it is more appropriate to let
all
> > > > > > > > > contributors get
> > > > > > > > > involved in this. So I moved the discussion to
ooo-dev.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > General process about voting in a new committer
and PPMC
> > > > > > > > > member is here
> > > > > > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > By far the practice is most candidates were voted
for
> > > > > > > > > committer and
> > > > > > > > > PPMC member at the same time.
> > > > > > > > > And no concreate critrial defined in public for
AOO.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Your comments are welcomed.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > A comment from Rob:
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > If it were entirely up to me I'd have it
be like:
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes
to the project,
> > > > > > > > > mailing list
> > > > > > > > > discussions, patches, translations, bug reports,
doc,
> > > > > > > > > support.� This
> > > > > > > > > comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to
do a better
> > > > > > > > > job giving
> > > > > > > > > them credit and acknowledging their contributions.�
If
> > > > > > > > > the feeling is
> > > > > > > > > that someone is not valued unless they are voted
in as a
> > > > > > > > > PPMC member,
> > > > > > > > > then we're doing something wrong.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 2) Committer -- The threshold question:�
Do we
> > > > > > > > > trust their judgement
> > > > > > > > > with respect to the area of their contributions?�
The
> > > > > > > > > move from
> > > > > > > > > contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches
must be
> > > > > > > > > reviewed)
> > > > > > > > > to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense
that they
> > > > > > > > > are doing quality
> > > > > > > > > work.� Committers also have veto rights on
all of our
> > > > > > > > > commits.� So we
> > > > > > > > > need to trust their judgement.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:�
Do they
> > > > > > > > > understand The
> > > > > > > > > Apache Way and our community-based decision making?
On
> > > > > > > > > average are
> > > > > > > > > they solving more community problems than they
are
> > > > > > > > > causing?� Are they
> > > > > > > > > helping others in the community succeed?� When
we
> > > > > > > > > graduate, and our
> > > > > > > > > Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively
> > > > > > > > > needs to
> > > > > > > > > mentor new members to the project.� So I think
the PMC
> > > > > > > > > is more about
> > > > > > > > > trusting their community skills rather than their
technical
> > > > > > > > > skills.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > It might be possible for someone to qualify
for 2 and 3
> > > > > > > > > at the same
> > > > > > > > > time.� But probably not in every case.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Note:� This is not how we have operated
> > > > > > > > > previously.� I think there was
> > > > > > > > > an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have
a PPMC
> > > > > > > > > suitably large
> > > > > > > > > and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously
> > > > > > > > > started with a PPMC
> > > > > > > > > consisting of people who did not fully understand
> > > > > > > > > Apache.� That is the
> > > > > > > > > nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this
approach
> > > > > > > > > is necessarily
> > > > > > > > > something we should continue with a year later,
as we
> > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > graduation.
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > --
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > MzK
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > "So let it rock, let it roll
> > > > > > > Let the bible belt come and save my soul
> > > > > > > Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
> > > > > > > Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
> > > > > > >         -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > >  
> > > --
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > MzK
> > >  
> > > "So let it rock, let it roll
> > > Let the bible belt come and save my soul
> > > Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
> > > Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
> > >                               -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
> > >  
> >  
> >  
>  
>  
>  



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