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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members
Date Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:45:34 GMT

On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>> FWIW,
>>>> 
>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>>> 
>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy.
>>> 
>>> My question/concern at this point would be --
>>> 
>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice?
>> 
>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members on the same
VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all. I think that from now on
this project should always have separate votes as a matter of policy.
>> 
>> What do others think?
>> 
> 
> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different
> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome.
> 
> But it will depend on the individual.   Consider three types of contributors:
> 
> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache
> 
> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from
> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another
> project
> 
> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache
> 
> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the
> necessary skills these roles.  In the first category, the experienced
> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly,
> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way.  But in the other
> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case),
> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer
> period of time,
> 
> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles.

Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in category (1) will be
quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case.

Consider
(a) Committers on another project.
(b) PMC members on another project.

None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another Apache project. They
expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior OpenOffice.org, experience will show.
This is why it can be a good idea for a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC
members to the "Initial Committer" list.

On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:

> ...
> If there were a way to make people members of the
> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that
> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically
> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not
> committers but not offer the same opportunity to
> committers by default.

Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric circles with code
being on one sector, but with many other sectors that differ from project to project.

If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to hold sequential
votes. Again to avoid complications.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking.
>>>> 
>>>> Pedro.
>>>> 
>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayongl@gmail.com>  ha scritto:
>>>> 
>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of
>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC
>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all
>>>>> contributors get
>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev.
>>>>> 
>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC
>>>>> member is here
>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for
>>>>> committer and
>>>>> PPMC member at the same time.
>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your comments are welcomed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> A comment from Rob:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project,
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc,
>>>>> support.� This
>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better
>>>>> job giving
>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If
>>>>> the feeling is
>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a
>>>>> PPMC member,
>>>>> then we're doing something wrong.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we
>>>>> trust their judgement
>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The
>>>>> move from
>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be
>>>>> reviewed)
>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they
>>>>> are doing quality
>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our
>>>>> commits.� So we
>>>>> need to trust their judgement.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they
>>>>> understand The
>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On
>>>>> average are
>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are
>>>>> causing?� Are they
>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we
>>>>> graduate, and our
>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively
>>>>> needs to
>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC
>>>>> is more about
>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical
>>>>> skills.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3
>>>>> at the same
>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated
>>>>> previously.� I think there was
>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC
>>>>> suitably large
>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously
>>>>> started with a PPMC
>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand
>>>>> Apache.� That is the
>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach
>>>>> is necessarily
>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we
>>>>> approach
>>>>> graduation.
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> MzK
>>> 
>>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>>          -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp


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