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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Rules of voting for new committers and PPMC members
Date Mon, 04 Jun 2012 20:50:38 GMT

On Jun 4, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 06/03/2012 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Foundation Roles are explained here:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>>>>> 
>>>>> yes, this is standard ASF policy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My question/concern at this point would be --
>>>>> 
>>>>> how well do we think this works for Apache OpenOffice?
>>>> 
>>>> The PPMC has had the practice of making Committers into PPMC members on
>> the same VOTE. This is the practice for some Apache projects, but not all.
>> I think that from now on this project should always have separate votes as
>> a matter of policy.
>>>> 
>>>> What do others think?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If we agree that committer and PMC are different roles with different
>>> criteria, then I think that is the natural outcome.
>>> 
>>> But it will depend on the individual.   Consider three types of
>> contributors:
>>> 
>>> -- experienced OpenOffice.org contributor, but new to Apache
>>> 
>>> -- new to the project entirely, but experienced with Apache from
>>> another Apache project, perhaps already a PMC member in another
>>> project
>>> 
>>> - new both to OpenOffice and to Apache
>>> 
>>> Based on prior experience it might be easier/faster to demonstrate the
>>> necessary skills these roles.  In the first category, the experienced
>>> OOo contributor, I'd expect they could be make a committer quickly,
>>> but will take time to learn about The Apache Way.  But in the other
>>> categories they might already have that knowledge (in the 2nd case),
>>> or develop it concurrently as they learn about the code over a longer
>>> period of time,
>>> 
>>> But in principle I think we should be distinguishing this roles.
>> 
>> Let's discuss (2) since now that the project is bootstrapped those in
>> category (1) will be quickly recognized and (3) is the usual case.
>> 
> 
> Well I do have a concern about (1). In fact, given the ecosystem here, with
> the amount of "paths" one might take to participate, I wonder if we miss
> participation in some arenas.

We certainly will.

> 
> I guess the only thing we can hope for in this respect is that a current
> PPMC member (or two) has  their fingers in several areas.

It is important for all committers and PMC members to identify and encourage contributors.
The PMC should keep a "watch" list of contributors who look likely. Committers can send suggestions
to ooo-private along with the areas of contribution and interested PMC members can look for
sustained effort.

> 
> A discussion for another time perhaps.

Yes.

Regards,
Dave

> 
>> 
>> Consider
>> (a) Committers on another project.
>> (b) PMC members on another project.
>> 
>> None of these people expect to automatically be granted roles on another
>> Apache project. They expect that they will earn merit, but like the prior
>> OpenOffice.org, experience will show. This is why it can be a good idea for
>> a project to add experienced Apache committers / PMC members to the
>> "Initial Committer" list.
>> 
>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>> 
>>> ...
>>> If there were a way to make people members of the
>>> (P)PMC without making them committers I am sure that
>>> would be used a lot but it would seem meritocratically
>>> incorrect to bring into the PPMC people that are not
>>> committers but not offer the same opportunity to
>>> committers by default.
>> 
>> Keep it simple. So Committer first and then (P)PMC. Think of concentric
>> circles with code being on one sector, but with many other sectors that
>> differ from project to project.
>> 
> 
> definitely +1 on this.
> 
> Committers first...
> 
> 
>> 
>> If the (P)PMC decides someone needs to be both then I think we'll need to
>> hold sequential votes. Again to avoid complications.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pretty much in line to what you are thinking.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pedro.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --- Dom 3/6/12, Yong Lin Ma<mayongl@gmail.com>  ha scritto:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This was a discussion about rules of
>>>>>>> voting for new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>> member. We think it is more appropriate to let all
>>>>>>> contributors get
>>>>>>> involved in this. So I moved the discussion to ooo-dev.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> General process about voting in a new committer and PPMC
>>>>>>> member is here
>>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> By far the practice is most candidates were voted for
>>>>>>> committer and
>>>>>>> PPMC member at the same time.
>>>>>>> And no concreate critrial defined in public for AOO.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Your comments are welcomed.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A comment from Rob:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If it were entirely up to me I'd have it be like:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1) Contributor -- anyone who contributes to the project,
>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>> discussions, patches, translations, bug reports, doc,
>>>>>>> support.� This
>>>>>>> comes in all flavors and sizes.� We need to do a better
>>>>>>> job giving
>>>>>>> them credit and acknowledging their contributions.� If
>>>>>>> the feeling is
>>>>>>> that someone is not valued unless they are voted in as a
>>>>>>> PPMC member,
>>>>>>> then we're doing something wrong.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2) Committer -- The threshold question:� Do we
>>>>>>> trust their judgement
>>>>>>> with respect to the area of their contributions?� The
>>>>>>> move from
>>>>>>> contributor to committer is a move from RTC (patches must be
>>>>>>> reviewed)
>>>>>>> to CTR.� So we really need to have a sense that they
>>>>>>> are doing quality
>>>>>>> work.� Committers also have veto rights on all of our
>>>>>>> commits.� So we
>>>>>>> need to trust their judgement.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 3) PMC member -- The threshold question:� Do they
>>>>>>> understand The
>>>>>>> Apache Way and our community-based decision making? On
>>>>>>> average are
>>>>>>> they solving more community problems than they are
>>>>>>> causing?� Are they
>>>>>>> helping others in the community succeed?� When we
>>>>>>> graduate, and our
>>>>>>> Mentors move on to other podlings, the PMC collectively
>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>> mentor new members to the project.� So I think the PMC
>>>>>>> is more about
>>>>>>> trusting their community skills rather than their technical
>>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It might be possible for someone to qualify for 2 and 3
>>>>>>> at the same
>>>>>>> time.� But probably not in every case.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Note:� This is not how we have operated
>>>>>>> previously.� I think there was
>>>>>>> an bootstrapping issue where we needed to have a PPMC
>>>>>>> suitably large
>>>>>>> and diverse to provide balance.� We also obviously
>>>>>>> started with a PPMC
>>>>>>> consisting of people who did not fully understand
>>>>>>> Apache.� That is the
>>>>>>> nature of Incubation.� But I don't think this approach
>>>>>>> is necessarily
>>>>>>> something we should continue with a year later, as we
>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>> graduation.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> MzK
>>>>> 
>>>>> "So let it rock, let it roll
>>>>> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
>>>>> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
>>>>> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>>>>>         -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
> 
> "So let it rock, let it roll
> Let the bible belt come and save my soul
> Hold on to sixteen as long as you can
> Changes come around real soon make us woman and men."
>                               -- "Jack and Diane", John Mellencamp


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