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From drew jensen <drewjensen.in...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Guidelines for list conduct policy
Date Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:02:29 GMT
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 22:32 +0100, David McKay wrote:
> On 19/06/12 21:26, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Top posting as I'm not commenting on the text itself. I'd like to request
> > that this document clarifies the purpose of the private list - we don't
> > want to give the  impression that the project conducts essential business
> > on the private list.
> (My new text amendments are at the bottom.)
> 
> That would make sense - but these are guidelines for all AOO mailing 
> lists, aren't they?
> This isn't specific to the ooo-private?
> 
> Dave.
> > Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
> > On Jun 16, 2012 4:26 PM, "Wolf Halton"<wolf.halton@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >
> >> This is a draft with the additions from the group, for a lazy consensus.
> >> I am envisioning that the final draft can be added to the sign-in progress
> >> for the various mailing-lists and also as a link to the project
> >> mailing-list page.
> >>
> >> I have not included any pieces about what happens to an individual who does
> >> not abide by the general group agreements, as that has not been discussed
> >> here yet.
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------
> >>
> >> List Conduct Policy
> >>
> >>    1.
> >>
> >>    What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas:
> >>    Anything you read in the private list is by default a private PPMC
> >>    affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to other people who are not in
> >>    the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads probably should be
> >> in
> >>    the public lists, except choosing committers and PPMC members, and a very
> >>    few others.
> >>    In fact, all email lists or email conversations have this aspect of
> >>    privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the list, it is assumed
> >>    that privacy will be maintained and a list member's name and location
> >> will
> >>    not be published in a newspaper or some other public venue where personal
> >>    privacy is not expected.
> >>    2.
> >>
> >>    Be Nice:
> >>    Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
> >>    not English, there are busy hurried readers.  If other list members are
> >>    telling you they do not understand what you wrote, or take your innocent
> >>    phasing in a poor light, take it as a signal that your writing style is
> >> too
> >>    idiomatic or too technical (unlikely but possible) for others to follow
> >>    easily.  This does not necessarily mean you are mean, wrong and bad, so
> >>    just be nice and reword the passage.  Assume people are not in "attack
> >>    mode." We are all on the same team here.
> >>    3.
> >>
> >>    Don't Respond When You are Angry:
> >>    Presuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
> >>    just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
> >>    hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
> >> you
> >>    yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to explain your
> >>    point clearly.
> >>    4.
> >>
> >>    Relax:
> >>    Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing gets
> >>    decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wait
> >>    until morning.  You might even get lucky, and when you check back
> >> somebody
> >>    else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
> >>    enough that you can work with it.
> >>    Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
> >>    list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
> >> different
> >>    time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond no more than
> >> once
> >>    per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest frequency of
> >>    responses does not necessarily “Win” in a community of equals. The most
> >>    concise and useful post tends to win, if furthering the dialog and
> >>    advancing the community's goals is what we are after..
> >>    5.
> >>
> >>    Get to the Point:
> >>    Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
> >>    people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
> >>    ending up defensive.
> >>    6.
> >>
> >>    Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
> >>    People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
> >>    frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff they
> >>    have already read.  To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the
> >> post
> >>    to which one is replying that are not important to understand ones reply.
> >>    If the response to one of these posts is, “What? I do not understand,”
> >> then
> >>    it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.
> >>    7.
> >>
> >>    There are Going to be Exceptions to the Rule:
> >>    All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
> >>    A person posting child porn on this list will be reported to the
> >>    appropriate authorities and will not be able to complain that their list
> >>    privacy has been violated.
> >>    Ramping up to a release, there are a lot of postings at high frequency.
> >>    Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> More Useful Stuff:
> >>
> >> Apache Tips for Email Contributors –
> >> <http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html>
> >> http://www.apache.org/dev/contrib-email-tips.html
> >>
> >> Apache OpenOffice Mailing Lists –
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html<
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   ======================
> >>
> >> --
> >> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> >> Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
> >> Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
> >> Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org
> >>
> I've made slight re-wordings through-out, and added in a new section 7, 
> and made the old section 7 section 8.
> 
> List Conduct Policy
> 
>    1.
>    What Happens on the list, stays on the list:
>    Anything you read in the private list is by default a private PPMC
>    affair and not to be spoken of, or copied to, other people who are not in
>    the PPMC.  If you think about it, most topic threads probably should 
> be in
>    the public lists, except choosing committers and PPMC members, and a very
>    few other topics.
>    In fact, all email lists or email conversations have this aspect of
>    privacy. Even if there are 23000 subscribers on the list, it is assumed
>    that privacy will be maintained and a list member's name and location 
> will
>    not be disclosed in some public venue where personal privacy is not 
> expected,
>    such as published in a newspaper or some other.

hi,

I would disagree with that last statement completely - a public list is
just that, public, and there should be absolutely no expectation of
privacy whatsoever. To pretend otherwise is simply to lie to those who
would use the list.

//drew

> 
>    2.
>    Be Nice:
>    Not only are there lots of people on this list whose first language is
>    not English, there are busy readers, who  by neccesity have to read 
> things
>    quickly.  If other list members are telling you they do not 
> understand what
>    you wrote, or take your innocent phrasing in a poor light, take it as 
> a signal
>    that your writing style is too idiomatic or too technical (unlikely 
> but possible)
>    for others to follow easily.  This does not necessarily mean you are 
> mean
+
> , wrong
>    or bad, so just be nice and rewrite the passage using different 
> words. Assume
>    people are not in "attack mode". We are all on the same team here.
> 
>    3.
>    Don't Respond When You are Angry:
>    Assuming people are not in attack mode means, if you think they are,
>    just now, then probably you are just misunderstanding their point. Ad
>    hominem attacks, e.g., "You are too dumb to get this," are a sign that
>    you yourself may not have a good-enough handle on the issue to 
> explain your
>    point clearly.
> 
>    4.
>    Relax:
>    Always remember, that unless there is a *darn* good reason, nothing gets
>    decided at the ASF in less than 72 elapsed hours, so your reply can wait
>    until morning. You might even get lucky, and when you check back somebody
>    else will have posted either what you wanted to say, or something close
>    enough that you can accept that their post covered what you wanted to 
> say.
>    Remember that the members of a community mailing list will get to the
>    list when they can. Most of us do this in our spare time, and in
>    different time zones. Perhaps the rule of thumb could be to respond 
> no more than
>    once per hour, or once per day, to any given thread. The highest 
> frequency of
>    responses does not necessarily “Win” in a community of equals. The most
>    concise and useful post tends to win, because furthering the dialog and
>    advancing the community's goals is what we desire.
> 
>    5.
>    Get to the Point:
>    Write as tersely as possible, and edit down as much possible, so other
>    people who are just as busy as you may quickly get your point without
>    ending up defensive, but balance is needed. Do not let brevity get in
>    the way of providing enough information. Remember that people must
>    understand your post in order to understand your point.
> 
>    6.
>    Consider trimming the post to which you are responding:
>    People who read emails on small screens are not the only ones who are
>    frustrated by picking important new information out of tons of stuff they
>    have already read. To trim a post, one simply remove any parts of the 
> post
>    to which one is replying that are not important to understand one's 
> reply.
>    If the response to one of these posts is, “What? I do not 
> understand,” then
>    it may be that too much of the context may have been removed.
> 
>    7.
>    Respect one another:
>    Discussion is the cornerstone of a project like this and the sharing of
>    viewpoints is crucial, as is understanding and accepting that many views
>    will differ from your own. By all means debate rigorously and defend your
>    view point stoutly, but avoid abrasive dialogue and personal attacks. 
> Give
>    leeway to people who do not have English as a first language. Pause 
> before
>    taking insult, and pause before responding. There is a difference 
> between
>    robust discussion and steamrollering. Civility is paramount. Manners 
> cost
>    nothing; we are all capable of self-moderation, and of being aware of 
> our
>    conduct.
> 
>    8.
>    There are going to be exceptions to the rules:
>    All of these guidelines are subject to sanity-testing.
>    A person posting child porn (say) on this list will be reported to the
>    appropriate authorities and will not be able to complain that their list
>    privacy has been violated.
>    When we're ramping up to a release, there are always a lot of 
> postings at
>    high frequency. That's normal.
>    Sometimes it takes a long post to say what needs to be said.
> 
> Dave.
> 



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