Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 287E5C6C2 for ; Thu, 24 May 2012 14:20:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 40583 invoked by uid 500); 24 May 2012 14:20:01 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 40490 invoked by uid 500); 24 May 2012 14:20:01 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 40481 invoked by uid 99); 24 May 2012 14:20:01 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 May 2012 14:20:01 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of mayongl@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.175 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.160.175] (HELO mail-gh0-f175.google.com) (209.85.160.175) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 May 2012 14:19:57 +0000 Received: by ghbz2 with SMTP id z2so1903687ghb.6 for ; Thu, 24 May 2012 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jVbb/tJiLvwxLQYO1CaCmWByk/QVfjeqlFTaVmypqjg=; b=f+tdg8Qv8WYtI6Edx0FZNmXf3mgKlbKxqrxqC5J3IFdM1AwAjPoWfI5ELdpz1/5AR/ l3HBRRblDZsuY+Ae/M+Ko4Ik+4+NNFfLAKOQmQGRYhFzppTkozR6Sy5WuzTfWTi50UYN YbFXBVrrEYN6VGEjzeTjxk/d3phRh8ypPo1SpwF3GnCbrkY69nVd+0dGlQkOJk8TSv1F 3Ptp/IH1c9dfTA0DGxefAOYLNLBylPLkN8pdfZMV3e51h8dsRewLtuyetY3PaHhfhqTe PcBn56V0VXYwZ6kEmPo3LRqLfPBIesxWocFL528v3cGd2JX0lrvMG2ZeW1PMQE1kN0sZ niKw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.115.196 with SMTP id e44mr31529472yhh.90.1337869176541; Thu, 24 May 2012 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mayongl@gmail.com Received: by 10.147.93.3 with HTTP; Thu, 24 May 2012 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4FB60E7F.9070805@googlemail.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 22:19:36 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: nHkQakqqdacadC6PEuAMqTprza0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [UX] New AOO User Experience Community From: Yong Lin Ma To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org Whatever it is named, I think it is good for people who are experienced in UX design identify themselves out here. Designers need other's help to implement their ideas. The bar for UX design of such a product is very low. Everyone can have its own opinions or brilliant ideas. But it is also easy to mess up a product by combining many good ideas together. If things going well, there will be situations that people get different opinions about a ux change and the fall into endless discussion. I would trust UX designer's choice in case like that, if we a decision must be made in the end. On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote: > 2012/5/24 Rob Weir > >> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Kevin Grignon >> wrote: >> > On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Juergen Schmidt < >> jogischmidt@googlemail.com >> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Am Samstag, 19. Mai 2012 um 00:18 schrieb Paulo de Souza Lima: >> >> > 2012/5/18 Juergen Schmidt >> >> > >> >> > > Am Freitag, 18. Mai 2012 um 15:22 schrieb Paulo de Souza Lima: >> >> > > > 2012/5/18 J=C3=BCrgen Schmidt >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > On 5/18/12 10:32 AM, Kevin Grignon wrote: >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > Erik, >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > Good stuff. Will do. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > do we really need such a separate page for UX community >> members? I >> >> > > don't >> >> > > > > think so and I personally think it goes in the wrong directio= n. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > There's nothing to loose, in my view. But I wouldn't call UX a >> >> > > "community". >> >> > > > I would call it a "team". >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I am personally interested in many different areas of the >> project >> >> and >> >> > > > > don't want to put my name on X different pages. My contributi= on >> in >> >> the >> >> > > > > different areas will be also different and will change from >> time to >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > time. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > If you are interested in many areas (just like me) you are free= to >> >> decide >> >> > > > if you will place your name in all of them, or none. I don't se= e a >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > problem >> >> > > > with that. But if I am deeply involved with some project, I wou= ld >> >> like to >> >> > > > place my name on it, for sure. Also, it's important from the >> user's >> >> point >> >> > > > of view, to know who are the contacts for the issues they have. >> And >> >> a new >> >> > > > contributor who wishes to have a larger involvement with the UX >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > activities >> >> > > > (and others too) should be able to identify who else is involve= d. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Such a page doesn't really reflect who is doing the work and = is >> >> > > > > potentially misleading. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Again, I don't think so. Indeed, it doesn't reflect who is doin= g >> the >> >> job, >> >> > > > but it gives a clue. It would be worst if users have no clue ab= out >> >> that. >> >> > > > And Mediawiki has features that can give stronger clues. It's >> matter >> >> of >> >> > > > creating some sort of workflow. If there's a workflow, anyone c= an >> >> drive >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > his >> >> > > > task, without the need of a "coordinator". I could give you an >> >> example we >> >> > > > done in LibO, but I preffer to show you our own example in AOO:= Me >> >> and >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Raul >> >> > > > are about to finish a workflow for PT-BR document translations >> page >> >> which >> >> > > > is working very fine in LibO and we will make it work here too. >> When >> >> > > > finished, anyone will be able to choose a document, translate i= t, >> >> submit >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > it >> >> > > > for revise, revise translation, and all the work of every >> contributor >> >> > > >> >> > > will >> >> > > > be recorded. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > that sounds interesting but I don't see the relation to a >> >> community/team >> >> > > page >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Well, As I told before, I would not call it a "community". I would >> call >> >> it >> >> > a "team" or, if this word sounds bad, maybe the UX "Guys" sounds >> better >> >> =3D) >> >> > >> >> > How can you identify, today, people who are working on wiki >> maintenance, >> >> > for example? Note I'm not asking for *all* people, but the main one= s. >> I >> >> > couldn't do that until I have created some pages and Adailton >> questioned >> >> me >> >> > about that. So I made a search in the wiki to find who made the las= t >> >> > editions in the wiki, mainly after July 2011. And I found TJ. In hi= s >> >> > discussion page they used to change some messages, so I could find = out >> >> that >> >> > TJ and Adailton are the "wiki guys". But this information was not >> >> anywhere >> >> > in a clear view. Why not ease the work of displaying who is doing >> what? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > This could be automated in certain level if we had a better wik= i >> as I >> >> > > have >> >> > > > asked for some days ago. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > sure better or improved tooling is always good but again where is >> the >> >> > > relation to a people page? >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Imagine you ask to the wiki: Who are the guys working on infra for = the >> >> last >> >> > 2 months? Semantic searches can answer this question. And can reply= it >> >> > getting information from other systems, like CMS. >> >> > Semantic features work on FAQs. We use semantic searches allied to = a >> good >> >> > ontology structure to answer questions people use to ask. >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > We have already a general project page with project members t= hat >> >> > > doesn't >> >> > > > > reflect the current situation in the project. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I agree to this point, but I think a general list "too general" >> for >> >> the >> >> > > > average people. We should think about giving fast answers to AO= O >> >> users, >> >> > > > instead making them navigate through uncountable pages to find >> what >> >> they >> >> > > > want. Do you have any idea of how difficult is for people to fi= ll >> an >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > issue >> >> > > > in bugzilla, for example? Findind documentation either. And it'= s >> >> worst >> >> > > >> >> > > for >> >> > > > those who can't read/write in English. >> >> > > >> >> > > I do not disagree and I am fine with improving the workflow here.= It >> >> would >> >> > > be great to have a simplified workflow to submit issues. So let u= s >> >> think >> >> > > about such improvements. The same for documentation. >> >> > > >> >> > > But do think that a page with some names will change anything her= e? >> >> > >> >> > It depends on who are managing that page. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > In general such pages are useless from my point of view and g= et >> >> > > outdated >> >> > > > > very fast. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > My personal/professional experience points to another direction= . >> If >> >> UX >> >> > > has >> >> > > > enthusiastic volunteers who take the task to themselves, they w= ill >> >> take >> >> > > > care of their workspace. And I think there are very enthusiasti= c >> >> people >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > at >> >> > > > this moment. And they wish to do that, but it will be useless i= f >> UX >> >> > > > couldn't count on devs to hear what they have to say, because U= X >> >> should >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > be >> >> > > > the channel between users and devs. The enthusiasm can go down >> very >> >> > > >> >> > > quickly. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > I agree and it is and will not be easy, In the end the work have = to >> be >> >> > > done. That means that people have to convince other people from >> their >> >> > > ideas. Especially when people are not able to implement it on the= ir >> >> own. >> >> > > The better an idea is described and sold the better is the chance >> that >> >> > > somebody will implement it. >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I am preparing a little sample. If Mediawiki can be upgraded and th= e >> >> > extensions I have asked for installed, I=C4=BAl do that in PT-BR se= ction. >> >> > Otherwise, I'll do that in www.escritoriolivre.org/wiki >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> When you volunteer to help with the wiki please join the infra struct= ure >> >> mailing list and join the infra IRC channel. Show your expertise ther= e, >> ask >> >> people and I am sure you will get the support and the access rights y= ou >> >> need over time. That's the way how it works at Apache. I did it in th= e >> same >> >> way and got the rights I need for pootle. >> >> >> >> Just start doing the update by talking with the infra guys about it. >> What >> >> your plans are, what your experience is etc. that you are able to >> maintain >> >> the wiki or at least that you are I retested to help... >> >> >> >> Juergen >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > Juergen >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Regards >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Paulo de Souza Lima >> >> > http://almalivre.wordpress.com >> >> > Curitiba - PR >> >> > Linux User #432358 >> >> > Ubuntu User #28729 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > Hello All, >> > >> > Thanks for interest in UX. >> > >> > As for name, I must admit that I'm new to the effort, and the guidance >> from >> > PPMC and others, has, well, been subjective and contradictory at best.= If >> > the community wants to establish team/group/sub-community/gang naming >> > protocols, then please share when available. >> > >> >> It is cultural, but generally there is only one team here: =C2=A0the Apa= che >> OpenOffice team, and we're all members of it. =C2=A0 There may be a >> self-selected group of individuals working on a common task for a >> period of time. =C2=A0But we avoid having that lead to the development o= f >> segregated groups or hierarchies. =C2=A0 So it grates a bit on my ear to >> read 'UX will do this", or similar. =C2=A0IMHO just say, "I will do this= ". >> =C2=A0We're all contributing as individuals. >> >> > For example, we were told to not use the term "team", as is was reserv= ed >> > for the PPMC "team". Then, we were told not to use community and use >> > "team". As for UX guys", that is a non-starter for the obvious reasons= . >> > >> >> Right. =C2=A0 So factually "UX" is a topic, and various individuals are >> interested in that topic, and this interest will come and go, and >> change over time due to changes in overall project composition as well >> as competing priorities. >> >> > A key theme was that everyone wanted us not to fragment the broader te= am >> or >> > community - which makes sense. However, we are trying to reinvigorate = the >> > UX effort and could really use your support right now to help us >> > re-establish ourselves. Diversity is key to the health of the project, >> it's >> > OK if some people want to focus on different aspect of the offering. >> Let's >> > support each other in their individual pursuits, and work to connect s= uch >> > activity to the larger community. >> > >> >> This is all good. =C2=A0But it does not require explicit identification = as >> a "team". >> >> > We will rename to "UX team", which is easiest and most appropriate. We >> will >> > continue to use the [UX] email subject prefix, and only reference UX t= eam >> > in relation to UX-specific task assignments. >> > >> >> Who is "we"? >> > > > I think I got your point. You're right. There's no need to identify some > people as a "group". But, in fact, there are some "groups", for example, > the "infra group", "cws group", "brazilian volunteers group", "italian > volunteers group", and so on. That's because it's needed some admin right= s > to do their tasks, or because regional identification, not because they a= re > separated groups. Giving my opinion in this list, I'm giving it > individually and not in the name of the "groups" I can identify myself to= . > At least, I understand this way. Correct me If I understood it wrong. > > So, I think those interested in work in UX continue to manifest their > opinions and let's move on, right? =3D) > > >> >> -Rob >> >> > Regards, >> > Kevin >> > > Cheers. > > -- > Paulo de Souza Lima > http://almalivre.wordpress.com > Curitiba - PR > Linux User #432358 > Ubuntu User #28729