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From Paulo de Souza Lima <paulo.s.l...@varekai.org>
Subject Re: [UX] New AOO User Experience Community
Date Thu, 24 May 2012 12:52:49 GMT
2012/5/24 Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org>

> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Kevin Grignon
> <kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Juergen Schmidt <
> jogischmidt@googlemail.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Am Samstag, 19. Mai 2012 um 00:18 schrieb Paulo de Souza Lima:
> >> > 2012/5/18 Juergen Schmidt <jogischmidt@googlemail.com>
> >> >
> >> > > Am Freitag, 18. Mai 2012 um 15:22 schrieb Paulo de Souza Lima:
> >> > > > 2012/5/18 Jürgen Schmidt <jogischmidt@googlemail.com>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > On 5/18/12 10:32 AM, Kevin Grignon wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > Erik,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Good stuff. Will do.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > do we really need such a separate page for UX community
> members? I
> >> > > don't
> >> > > > > think so and I personally think it goes in the wrong direction.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > There's nothing to loose, in my view. But I wouldn't call UX
a
> >> > > "community".
> >> > > > I would call it a "team".
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I am personally interested in many different areas of the
> project
> >> and
> >> > > > > don't want to put my name on X different pages. My contribution
> in
> >> the
> >> > > > > different areas will be also different and will change from
> time to
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > time.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > If you are interested in many areas (just like me) you are free
to
> >> decide
> >> > > > if you will place your name in all of them, or none. I don't
see a
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > problem
> >> > > > with that. But if I am deeply involved with some project, I would
> >> like to
> >> > > > place my name on it, for sure. Also, it's important from the
> user's
> >> point
> >> > > > of view, to know who are the contacts for the issues they have.
> And
> >> a new
> >> > > > contributor who wishes to have a larger involvement with the
UX
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > activities
> >> > > > (and others too) should be able to identify who else is involved.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Such a page doesn't really reflect who is doing the work
and is
> >> > > > > potentially misleading.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Again, I don't think so. Indeed, it doesn't reflect who is doing
> the
> >> job,
> >> > > > but it gives a clue. It would be worst if users have no clue
about
> >> that.
> >> > > > And Mediawiki has features that can give stronger clues. It's
> matter
> >> of
> >> > > > creating some sort of workflow. If there's a workflow, anyone
can
> >> drive
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > his
> >> > > > task, without the need of a "coordinator". I could give you an
> >> example we
> >> > > > done in LibO, but I preffer to show you our own example in AOO:
Me
> >> and
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Raul
> >> > > > are about to finish a workflow for PT-BR document translations
> page
> >> which
> >> > > > is working very fine in LibO and we will make it work here too.
> When
> >> > > > finished, anyone will be able to choose a document, translate
it,
> >> submit
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > it
> >> > > > for revise, revise translation, and all the work of every
> contributor
> >> > >
> >> > > will
> >> > > > be recorded.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > that sounds interesting but I don't see the relation to a
> >> community/team
> >> > > page
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Well, As I told before, I would not call it a "community". I would
> call
> >> it
> >> > a "team" or, if this word sounds bad, maybe the UX "Guys" sounds
> better
> >> =)
> >> >
> >> > How can you identify, today, people who are working on wiki
> maintenance,
> >> > for example? Note I'm not asking for *all* people, but the main ones.
> I
> >> > couldn't do that until I have created some pages and Adailton
> questioned
> >> me
> >> > about that. So I made a search in the wiki to find who made the last
> >> > editions in the wiki, mainly after July 2011. And I found TJ. In his
> >> > discussion page they used to change some messages, so I could find out
> >> that
> >> > TJ and Adailton are the "wiki guys". But this information was not
> >> anywhere
> >> > in a clear view. Why not ease the work of displaying who is doing
> what?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > This could be automated in certain level if we had a better wiki
> as I
> >> > > have
> >> > > > asked for some days ago.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > sure better or improved tooling is always good but again where is
> the
> >> > > relation to a people page?
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Imagine you ask to the wiki: Who are the guys working on infra for the
> >> last
> >> > 2 months? Semantic searches can answer this question. And can reply it
> >> > getting information from other systems, like CMS.
> >> > Semantic features work on FAQs. We use semantic searches allied to a
> good
> >> > ontology structure to answer questions people use to ask.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We have already a general project page with project members
that
> >> > > doesn't
> >> > > > > reflect the current situation in the project.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I agree to this point, but I think a general list "too general"
> for
> >> the
> >> > > > average people. We should think about giving fast answers to
AOO
> >> users,
> >> > > > instead making them navigate through uncountable pages to find
> what
> >> they
> >> > > > want. Do you have any idea of how difficult is for people to
fill
> an
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > issue
> >> > > > in bugzilla, for example? Findind documentation either. And it's
> >> worst
> >> > >
> >> > > for
> >> > > > those who can't read/write in English.
> >> > >
> >> > > I do not disagree and I am fine with improving the workflow here.
It
> >> would
> >> > > be great to have a simplified workflow to submit issues. So let us
> >> think
> >> > > about such improvements. The same for documentation.
> >> > >
> >> > > But do think that a page with some names will change anything here?
> >> >
> >> > It depends on who are managing that page.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In general such pages are useless from my point of view
and get
> >> > > outdated
> >> > > > > very fast.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My personal/professional experience points to another direction.
> If
> >> UX
> >> > > has
> >> > > > enthusiastic volunteers who take the task to themselves, they
will
> >> take
> >> > > > care of their workspace. And I think there are very enthusiastic
> >> people
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > at
> >> > > > this moment. And they wish to do that, but it will be useless
if
> UX
> >> > > > couldn't count on devs to hear what they have to say, because
UX
> >> should
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > be
> >> > > > the channel between users and devs. The enthusiasm can go down
> very
> >> > >
> >> > > quickly.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I agree and it is and will not be easy, In the end the work have to
> be
> >> > > done. That means that people have to convince other people from
> their
> >> > > ideas. Especially when people are not able to implement it on their
> >> own.
> >> > > The better an idea is described and sold the better is the chance
> that
> >> > > somebody will implement it.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I am preparing a little sample. If Mediawiki can be upgraded and the
> >> > extensions I have asked for installed, Iĺl do that in PT-BR section.
> >> > Otherwise, I'll do that in www.escritoriolivre.org/wiki
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> When you volunteer to help with the wiki please join the infra structure
> >> mailing list and join the infra IRC channel. Show your expertise there,
> ask
> >> people and I am sure you will get the support and the access rights you
> >> need over time. That's the way how it works at Apache. I did it in the
> same
> >> way and got the rights I need for pootle.
> >>
> >> Just start doing the update by talking with the infra guys about it.
> What
> >> your plans are, what your experience is etc. that you are able to
> maintain
> >> the wiki or at least that you are I retested to help...
> >>
> >> Juergen
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > Juergen
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Paulo de Souza Lima
> >> > http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> >> > Curitiba - PR
> >> > Linux User #432358
> >> > Ubuntu User #28729
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Thanks for interest in UX.
> >
> > As for name, I must admit that I'm new to the effort, and the guidance
> from
> > PPMC and others, has, well, been subjective and contradictory at best. If
> > the community wants to establish team/group/sub-community/gang naming
> > protocols, then please share when available.
> >
>
> It is cultural, but generally there is only one team here:  the Apache
> OpenOffice team, and we're all members of it.   There may be a
> self-selected group of individuals working on a common task for a
> period of time.  But we avoid having that lead to the development of
> segregated groups or hierarchies.   So it grates a bit on my ear to
> read 'UX will do this", or similar.  IMHO just say, "I will do this".
>  We're all contributing as individuals.
>
> > For example, we were told to not use the term "team", as is was reserved
> > for the PPMC "team". Then, we were told not to use community and use
> > "team". As for UX guys", that is a non-starter for the obvious reasons.
> >
>
> Right.   So factually "UX" is a topic, and various individuals are
> interested in that topic, and this interest will come and go, and
> change over time due to changes in overall project composition as well
> as competing priorities.
>
> > A key theme was that everyone wanted us not to fragment the broader team
> or
> > community - which makes sense. However, we are trying to reinvigorate the
> > UX effort and could really use your support right now to help us
> > re-establish ourselves. Diversity is key to the health of the project,
> it's
> > OK if some people want to focus on different aspect of the offering.
> Let's
> > support each other in their individual pursuits, and work to connect such
> > activity to the larger community.
> >
>
> This is all good.  But it does not require explicit identification as
> a "team".
>
> > We will rename to "UX team", which is easiest and most appropriate. We
> will
> > continue to use the [UX] email subject prefix, and only reference UX team
> > in relation to UX-specific task assignments.
> >
>
> Who is "we"?
>


I think I got your point. You're right. There's no need to identify some
people as a "group". But, in fact, there are some "groups", for example,
the "infra group", "cws group", "brazilian volunteers group", "italian
volunteers group", and so on. That's because it's needed some admin rights
to do their tasks, or because regional identification, not because they are
separated groups. Giving my opinion in this list, I'm giving it
individually and not in the name of the "groups" I can identify myself to.
At least, I understand this way. Correct me If I understood it wrong.

So, I think those interested in work in UX continue to manifest their
opinions and let's move on, right? =)


>
> -Rob
>
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
>

Cheers.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

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