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Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 11:48:41 -0500
Message-ID: 
 <CAP-ksogXi0cwigHm9Soo=g-Vvb8OaJfm93bC3=6QLDouaKYvKg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Updates: IBM Lotus Symphony, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Docs and
 other fun stuff
From: Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
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On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Raphael Bircher <r.bircher@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 26.01.12 16:53, schrieb Rob Weir:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Graham Lauder<g.a.lauder@gmail.com>
>> =C2=A0wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thursday 26 Jan 2012 02:50:20 Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 7:08 AM, Graham Lauder<g.a.lauder@gmail.com>
>>>> =C2=A0wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, new features and function, worthy of consideration by this
>>>>>> community as a 'Apache OpenOffice 4.0' release will be the primary
>>>>>> focus
>>>>>> for the IBM volunteers working in the project at Apache, after the
>>>>>> project successfully completes the Apache 3.4 release. =C2=A0See the=
 AOO
>>>>>> 4.0
>>>>>> Feature Planning wiki page here: *http://s.apache.org/hW*
>>>>>
>>>>> IBM "volunteers?" =C2=A0_I_ =C2=A0volunteer. =C2=A0I don't get paid t=
o be here, I come
>>>>> here only on my own time. =C2=A0That's what volunteers do, if someone=
 is
>>>>> picking up a salary to work on AOO code that's hardly volunteering,
>>>>> except maybe in "doublespeak". Tsk! =C2=A0 However, whatever they're =
called,
>>>>> it will be good to see them pushing along 4.0, we are at a point now,
>>>>> having been out of the market for such a lengthy time, that with the
>>>>> new
>>>>> release there needs to be a substantially different product.
>>>>
>>>> Let me challenge your views on this. =C2=A0Anyone who participates in =
this
>>>> project does so because they get more out of it than they put into it.
>>>> =C2=A0Further, they would be insane to participate in the project unde=
r any
>>>> other conditions. =C2=A0What they put in is obvious: =C2=A0their time,=
 their
>>>> skills, their experience, their care, their overly long emails, etc.
>>>> What they get out is less tangible, but it still exists. =C2=A0In some
>>>> cases it is a salary, in other cases it is enjoyment, or experience,
>>>> reputation, etc. =C2=A0Cash payments are they only form of reward. =C2=
=A0Even
>>>> those who think they are participating for purely altruistic reasons
>>>> are doing so to enhance their self-image, imagining themselves to do
>>>> altruistic deeds. =C2=A0This is just basic balance of energy. =C2=A0An=
 animal
>>>> will not survive long if it chases down and kills prey where the
>>>> returned calories are less then those expended in the hunt. =C2=A0Sinc=
e no
>>>> one has a gun to our heads, forcing them to work on this project,
>>>> everyone here is a volunteer. =C2=A0Everyone is free to go or remain, =
or
>>>> participate to whatever level they feel gives them a sufficient reward
>>>> (of any form) for their investment in the project. =C2=A0 Even those w=
ho
>>>> are employed had and have a choice of jobs they could take. =C2=A0Mayb=
e
>>>> they took their current job because it gave them the opportunity to
>>>> continue participation in the project? =C2=A0Any illusion about this b=
asic
>>>> fact, such as the the project has self-less martyrs and course
>>>> mercenaries, =C2=A0is just sentimentality and does not really promote =
clear
>>>> thinking. =C2=A0The form of your personal reward for working in the pr=
oject
>>>> has zero impact on your rights, abilities, prerogatives, status or (to
>>>> me at least) the weight of your arguments in this project.
>>>
>>> Challenge away, I never said: people that volunteer, do it for altruist=
ic
>>> reasons, not sure where you read that. I will clarify:
>>>
>>> I simply stated that IBM's motives were certainly not altruistic I just
>>> have
>>> no idea what they are, and given that a corporation is a sociopathic
>>> beast I
>>> would really like to know what they are, but in the absence of an OOo
>>> related
>>> mission statement, I have to try deduction.
>>>
>> I remind you that the Apache Software Foundation is also a
>> corporation. =C2=A0So wild generalities of corporations being "sociopath=
ic
>> beasts" are not going to get you very far.
>>
>>> I also stated that someone paid by a corporate member to participate in
>>> this
>>> community cannot be called a volunteer. =C2=A0Take your argument to the
>>> extreme and
>>> you could say that every one _lives_ voluntarily because they decided n=
ot
>>> to
>>> top themselves this morning. =C2=A0A ridiculous argument. =C2=A0 Volunt=
eer =3D
>>> someone who
>>> has to sacrifice personal time outside of their daily mortgage paying
>>> work, to
>>> contribute.
>>>
>> I never said that someone with corporate sponsorship is a volunteer.
>> What I did is challenge you on your belief that this distinction --
>> the form of reward a participant receives -- =C2=A0makes any difference
>> whatsoever in terms of how we work on the project. Some members might
>> be Irishmen, Lutherans or fans of Real Madrid. =C2=A0These affiliations,=
 as
>> well as employment status, =C2=A0are just some of the many attributes of
>> our personhood. =C2=A0We should be dealing with each other as persons,
>> looking at individual actions, rather than drawing wild stereotypes
>> based on speculated group characteristics.
>
> That's not realy true Rob. I think IBM employee will also speak up for IB=
M
> Interests here. But thats normal, and this is not bad. Also a load of

That's why "hats" are so important.  See the section "Individuals
compose the ASF" here"

http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html

On rare occasions, when I feel I need to say something on behalf of
IBM, I've been explicit about that.  I say, "wearing my IBM hat....",
as in:

http://markmail.org/message/blwwws6ir545b2j6

or (an example from Don):

http://markmail.org/message/ybhbyw3aembdph5d

If I'm not doing that, then by default I am speaking as an individual
contributor on the project, expressing my own opinions, etc.  I hope
no one automatically agrees with what I say just because I happen to
work for IBM, or because I'm an American, or that I am a Red Sox fan,
but I also hope no one just automatically disagrees with me based on
these extraneous facts.

> "Volunteers" speek not only for them self. Remember, many has also
> commercial interrests. I have nothing against IBM. but don't tell me that
> they speak up all only as individual. For this reason it's good to know w=
hat
> people do in the rest of there life. So you understand same positions
> better.
>
>> I would have thought the
>> 20th century would have thought us something about the dangers of such
>> demagoguery?
>>
>>> Everyone participates in an Open Source project for various reasons, so=
me
>>> may
>>> be their own and some may be employers and all do it for some form of
>>> reward
>>> whether it be cash or something more esoteric. =C2=A0There are a lot of=
 people
>>> who
>>> do this as part of their 9 to 5 who are not what I would call volunteer=
s.
>>> =C2=A0How
>>> do I know this? =C2=A0Easy, this list dies over the weekend.
>>>
>> Maybe that is because we volunteer for other things on the weekend?
>> Or spend time with family, based on their schedule? =C2=A0In the end, it=
 is
>> really not your concern. =C2=A0Instead of questioning others motivations=
,
>> I'd recommend simply asking yourself what you want to accomplish in
>> the project.
>>
>> Of course, there is the distinct possibility that part of the joy you
>> experience by your participation in this project is engaging in length
>> off-topic debates with me. =C2=A0I'll let your next response confirm or
>> deny that theory ;-)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> GL
>
>
>
> --
> My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/