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From Ian Lynch <ianrly...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Off topic
Date Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:59:53 GMT
On 18 December 2011 15:42, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Ian Lynch <ianrlynch@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 18 December 2011 14:57, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Graham Lauder <g.a.lauder@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Friday 16 Dec 2011 12:03:53 Rob Weir wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> In other words you think my views are heretical.
> >
> >
> > No, they are a political perspective dressed up as if rational.
> >
>
> It looks like you are trying to dismiss my points without rebutting a
> single point of my argument.
>

Because I haven't time for a political debate that won't get anywhere.

>
> > Of course, that doesn't mean that individual engineers failed
> >> personally, or that there were no good efforts.  Far from it.  You
> >> should never take such things personally.
> >>
> >
> > Most of the community are not engineers.
> >
>
> True.  But engineers are essential contributors to the project.


No argument but the point is that the community is much broader and the
debate was about the whole community not just engineers. That is generally
something that seemed to be better understood in the OOo community a few
years back.

 There
> are other essential contributors roles as well.  Remove any one of
> them and the project fails.
>
> > I think acknowledging the above is key to community building,
>
> No one denies this.  But will you acknowledge that a complex system
> can fail as a whole by the failure of even a single component?
>

Of course - but it all depends on your perspective on failure which is why
it ends up as a political debate.


> One can die of a heart attack but still be healthy in other areas.  It
> is not all or nothing.


I think anyone who just died of a heart attack might disagree :-) But death
doesn't mean someone's life was a failure.  Some would view it as a natural
end to a phase. Arguably the impact of Leonardo's life is mostly after the
event. Just because he died it didn't mean his life was a failure.

Organ donor programs are based on this
> principle.
>
> >>
> >
> > The key to community building is to generate community spirit and a
> feeling
> > of belonging.
> >
>
> This is one key, yes.  But a eulogy for someone that had a "great
> spirit" is still a eulogy.
>
> > especially in persuading LibreOffice volunteers that their ultimate
> >> goals are also fulfilled at Apache, and that Apache has far greater
> >> means, and proven ability, to prevent control from a single
> >> corporation than TDF does.
> >>
> >
> > Brute common sense from an individual perspective rarely realises its
> goal
> > and often has the opposite effect from that intended.
> > --
>
> I think we need to be honest about what worked well and what didn't,
> in order to avoid the mistakes of the past, but also to build on past
> successes.  Community spirit based on mass reality distortion fields
> helps no one, since it prevents us from seeing things as they are.
>

Well one thing that definitely didn't work in the past was alienating
community members with ill-thought out arguments no matter how logical
those arguments might appear to an individual. The community is made of
people with emotions and that is why brute logic is often a very
ineffective tool.

-Rob
>
> > Ian
> >
> > Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
> >
> > www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
> >
> > The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
> > Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
> > Wales.
>
-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

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