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From TJ Frazier <tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com>
Subject Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Date Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:06:19 GMT
On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler
> <rgardler@opendirective.com>  wrote:
>> On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weir<robweir@apache.org>  wrote:
>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler
>>> <rgardler@opendirective.com>  wrote:
>>>> On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weir<robweir@apache.org>  wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Potts<louis@apache.org>
 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>> Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus
here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing
the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside
the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for
instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest
using a simpler work medium, such as wikis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me
*what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question,
and I'd like to move on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see several models that could work:
>>>>
>>>> All good options...
>>>>
>>>>> You hint at another option.  I'm not sure it would work, but let's
>>>>> list it for sake of argument:
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings.  Their
>>>>> charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO.  But they
>>>>> would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website,
>>>>> mailing lists, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you feel this would this not work?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors?
>>
>> Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the
>> people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they
>> translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I
>> was just wondering what the source of your reservations was.
>>
>
> So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced:
>
> 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above.
>
> 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration.
> We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work
> in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that
> the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language
> list as spam.  I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas.
> But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something
> similar.  So not a bad thing to try.  But I'd anticipate initial
> challenges of this kind.
>
> 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release.  To get through the
> ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand
> things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing.  Translators are not
> coders.  Their expertise is on the linguistic side.  They are not
> command-line people.  You might be lucky and have someone who can also
> be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed.
>
> 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases.  How do you get three
> +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project?
>
> 5) Growing the community of developers is hard.  Once you've
> translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what?  Translate them again,
> better?  And then better again?  Put differently, the work of
> translation is finite and does not give much room for growth.
> However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach
> to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth.
>
> 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project.  Since translations are not
> usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would
> be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming
> they are not forking the code itself.  I've heard general unease with
> umbrella projects at Apache.
>
> But if we are willing to dream, you could imagine a kind of umbrella
> project, not of code modules, but of user-facing interactions, where
> autonomous groups within Apache maintained localized user-facing
> pages, wikis, user lists, support forums, etc.   TLP might be too
> heavy weight for this, since we have potentially many dozens of these,
> and their releases would consist of translated strings that are only
> useful when installed with AOO.  The non-release activities of the
> project would clearly be their focus.  So this is something I don't
> think we've seen at Apache in a TLP.   (We see them in foundation
> projects, but this is not that).  Rather than squeeze it into an
> existing mold, maybe it needs a new something?
>
> -Rov
>
>> Ross
>>
Idea? Some of the problems would be minimized if the Native Language 
Confederation (NLC) as a whole became a project. Perhaps Louis could 
sound out some folks on this?

-- 
/tj/


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