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From Pedro Giffuni <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: About Team OpenOffice.org
Date Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:19:55 GMT
Hello Götz;

Being new in AOO, and to OpenOffice.org in general, I was not
very aware of the long history Team OpenOffice.org has
supporting this great product.

Right now I have to admit I have mixed feelings about us
not giving you permission to use the OpenOffice.org brand
and I think that happened mainly due to mis-communication.

On the other hand, the majority of the community has voted
to basically deprecate the Openoffice.org brand in favor
of Apache OpenOffice and this is an opportunity to underline
the new license and the great organization behind it. This a
good reason to reject further uses of the old brand.

With respect to the business, using a copyleft license usually
limited the options to selling support or otherwise asking for
contributions. Both options are still possible (with proper
care of the trademarks when asking for contributions of
course), but now it's also possible to add value in many
different ways to make a product more attractive.

In AOO, as we distribute it, we even have some limitations that can
be covered by third party distributors: we don't carry GPL'd
icons or fonts and we disabled functions like importing documents
from WordPerfect. If you do your own distribution with extra
features we could link to it from our servers and recommend it
officially.

I personally wouldn't see any problem if your distribution
eventually becomes more popular for specific markets than the
one the ASF will make.

Just something to think about after the holidays :).

cheers,

Pedro.


--- Ven 23/12/11, Götz Wohlberg <goetz.wohlberg@googlemail.com> ha scritto:
...
> Hi Pedro,
> 
> Am 20.12.11 22:56, schrieb Pedro Giffuni:
> > Hello Götz;
> > 
> > First of all welcome! Part of the confusion was indeed
> that we
> > had not really hear from TOO and it's goals and future
> plans.
> > 
> > I am relatively new to both OpenOffice and Apache but
> one of
> > the things that motivated me to join is that the
> Apache
> > License is very open to business. If you can make some
> profit
> > or even live out of developing your own product based
> on Apache
> > OpenOffice (as we will call it from now on), we are
> all very
> > happy about it. As you said there were some mistakes
> made by
> > TOO and we appreciate that you have been working on
> them.
> > 
> > Our development is very open here: we use subversion,
> the
> > builds are pretty stable and we have finished the
> major
> > changes required to license IP review. We still have
> > work to do, especially related to rebranding (icons,
> logos,
> > etc), dictionary distributions, and perhaps adding
> some
> > features that were disabled but things are going
> pretty
> > well.
> > 
> > Keep us informed on what you are working and do let us
> know
> > if you see opportunities for collaboration as we
> would
> > like to avoid duplicated efforts.
> Thanks for your welcome and your explanation! My priorities
> are no secret: Find (1) funding, (2) customers or (3)
> sponsors. Unfortunately collaboration on these topics is
> tricky: (1) Funding through donations was planned to give us
> a starting point, but our donation campaign caused serious
> hiccups. I would love to work on a model that is in the best
> of interest for the ASF and our plans.
> 
> (2) Finding service customers at this point in time is also
> not promising as AOO 3.4 is not out yet. So we need to focus
> on OpenOffice.org 3.x.x customers. What all customers want
> is a guarantee that OpenOffice.org has a bright future. We
> wanted to give the long-awaited sign of life and released
> the requested security update - unfortunately under a
> different name - which caused the next trouble. My hope was,
> we find an arrangement with the ASF and have a joined
> communication. This failed for the Release Candidate. Maybe
> there is a chance for the final version.
> 
> But even without the approval to use "OpenOffice.org" for
> this one #3.3.1 release, it was no option for us not to do
> it. Customer first! We are aware of the fact that this
> caused again confusion but we are not getting a single
> dollar for doing nothing. If we don't listen to customers,
> we are not allowed to be here.
> 
> (3) Finding a new sponsor to continue to work on OOo did
> work out just for some of us. I'm sure that the original
> developer team would still be pretty much intact if a new
> sponsor would have jumped in. This annoys and motivates me
> at the same time. OOo is such a relevant and important
> product, that more developers should work on it. I had other
> good job offerings but I strongly believe that OOo/AOO is a
> good place to be - with tons of new opportunities and
> challenges ;-)
> 
> I can understand the criticism that we don't communicate
> enough. But we also have to focus and dedicate our time on
> (1), (2) and (3). All our goals have in common that they are
> based on OOo and AOO. Looks to me that there is not much
> what we can do without making trouble ;-). But doing nothing
> is not an option. So we are still trying to find our way.
> The good news is that I'm receiving a lot of encourage
> emails with "Don't give up!", "Keep going", etc. Let's give
> it a new start next year.
> 
> My best wishes to you and a happy Xmas!
> Goetz
> > 
> > Welcome again,
> > 
> > Pedro.
> > 
> > --- Mar 20/12/11, Götz Wohlberg<goetz.wohlberg@googlemail.com> 
> ha scritto:
> > 
> >> Da: Götz Wohlberg<goetz.wohlberg@googlemail.com>
> >> Oggetto: About Team OpenOffice.org
> >> A: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> Data: Martedì 20 dicembre 2011, 11:55
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> May I introduce myself? My name is Goetz Wohlberg
> and I
> >> spent the last 16+ years working on OpenOffice.org
> and it's
> >> commercial derivatives like StarOffice or Oracle
> Open
> >> Office. At the moment I'm helping Martin and
> Stefan from
> >> Team OpenOffice.org e.V. to setup a team with
> full-time
> >> developers to join the Apache OpenOffice podling.
> My focus
> >> is to create value for customers and to build a
> successful
> >> commercial business.
> >> 
> >> I have not read all of the posting here and I'm
> not a
> >> native English speaker. So I might have missed
> some topics
> >> or discussions. But my impression is that there is
> a major
> >> disconnect between the ASF and Team
> OpenOffice.org. I guess
> >> it's time to be more direct and blunt about our
> situation.
> >> Please let me try to explain what our ideas are
> with Team
> >> OpenOffice.org, what we did, what we learned and
> what our
> >> next steps are.
> >> 
> >> First off, we are not evil! We don't want to
> mislead
> >> consumers (although I admit we did)! We are not
> collecting
> >> donations for our own coffers! We don't have a
> business
> >> model that is just based on donations! What we
> plan to do
> >> can be summarized in the following three goals:
> >> 
> >> 1. We want to help existing Oracle customers that
> they
> >> continue to use
> >>     OpenOffice.org
> >> 2. We want to make money with support and service
> for
> >> OpenOffice.org
> >>     and Apache OpenOffice
> >> 3. We want to be able to sponsor developers
> working
> >> full-time on
> >>     OpenOffice.org and save as
> much developer
> >> know-how as possible from
> >>     the primary contributor
> Sun/Oracle
> >> 
> >> 
> >> To 1:
> >> I'm in contact with a number of customers and I
> can assure
> >> you, that they are desperately looking for a sign
> of life
> >> and new releases for OpenOffice.org. Keep in mind
> that we
> >> released products every 3 month. Customers haven't
> seen an
> >> OOo release since nearly a year now. I understand
> that AOO
> >> 3.4 is in preparation and on the horizon, but how
> reliable
> >> is this? The ASF does not have a track record yet
> for AOO.
> >> Customers and consumers are also asking for
> support for
> >> their current version -- and this is
> OpenOffice.org 3.3.0
> >> and earlier. That's the reason why we strongly
> believe, AOO
> >> 3.4 is important, but OOo 3.3.1 is also important.
> We think
> >> that a maintenance releases for OOo 3.3.0 can help
> to create
> >> trust in the project and help customers to wait
> for AOO
> >> 3.4.
> >> 
> >> To 2:
> >> Important part of our business model is to sell
> support and
> >> service contracts to OpenOffice.org and -- in the
> future --
> >> Apache OpenOffice customers. With the withdrawal
> of the main
> >> sponsor Oracle there are not many companies on
> this planet
> >> doing so. We believe that this is quite a cool
> unique
> >> selling point (USP). Unfortunately decision-making
> in the
> >> Enterprise about OOo support contracts normally
> takes around
> >> 6 to 9 month. We don't have that reach. So we need
> to close
> >> this gap until we see service revenue coming in.
> >> 
> >> To 3:
> >> Here is a quote from a kind user who is trying to
> help us
> >> to make our case. I think this is a pretty good
> explanation
> >> of our situation: "Oracle used to pay our salaries
> to work
> >> on OpenOffice,org, but since Oracle turned
> OpenOffice.org
> >> over to the Apache Foundation, it no longer pays
> us. We were
> >> primary contributors to OpenOffice.org, we love
> it, and we
> >> want to be able to work on it full-time. Unless a
> large
> >> company or government hires us to do this (wink,
> wink,
> >> nudge, nudge), we are trying to support ourselves
> via
> >> donations -- until we are ready to sell service
> contracts.
> >> Donations to the Apache Foundation, while a nice
> thing to
> >> do, can not be used for this purpose, so you will
> need to
> >> donate to Team OpenOffice.org as a separate
> entity."
> >> 
> >> And collecting donations is something -- as you
> know --
> >> Team OpenOffice.org always did! Donations are very
> important
> >> for us in this phase to close the gap until we see
> service
> >> revenue coming in. And there are also very
> successful
> >> companies like the Wikimedia Foundation that are
> based on
> >> donations. Therefore I authorized the donation
> campaign
> >> "Save OpenOffice.org" - and I want to apologize
> for that! It
> >> was a mistake because I didn't realize that at the
> same time
> >> this implies that OpenOffice.org is not doing well
> at the
> >> ASF. Believe me or not, it was not my intend to
> bring
> >> discredit upon the Apache OpenOffice project.
> >> 
> >> What are our next steps though? We are of course
> accepting
> >> the ASF ownership of the OpenOffice.org trademark.
> As we
> >> worked since 2003 smoothly together with Sun and
> Oracle, we
> >> were surprised to see that non-commercial Apache
> is seeing
> >> us as a troublemaker. Btw, Team OpenOffice.org is
> also
> >> non-commercial.
> >> 
> >> We will not stop asking for donations to sponsor
> >> developers! Please take your time to understand
> what we are
> >> asking for. We are asking for money to help
> developing OOo!
> >> We are not asking to donate for the ASF or OOo! If
> our
> >> communication on this topic is not clear enough,
> we'll fix
> >> it! Do you see the difference? Again, we want
> full-time
> >> developers working on the project and contributing
> their
> >> work to the Apache OpenOffice podling -- something
> the ASF
> >> can't do! How bad is this? Without full-time
> developers our
> >> business model won't fly.
> >> 
> >> We will not stop telling the world that we were
> the primary
> >> contributors and inventors of OpenOffice.org. The
> >> development team in Hamburg created it -- with the
> help of
> >> the OpenOffice.org community -- and is happy to
> continue
> >> developing it. I don't think that this is
> confusing users.
> >> It's the truth. The ASF should use this as a
> weapon not as a
> >> threat. We will also defend ourselves against
> malicious
> >> gossip or suspicion -- same like the ASF does. So
> please
> >> stop the own-coffers-thing.
> >> 
> >> As service and support is part of our business
> model, we
> >> are listening to OpenOffice.org Enterprise users
> and
> >> customers. They asked us for a maintenance release
> for
> >> OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 due to the security issues --
> and we
> >> will deliver! This release will carry a name that
> does not
> >> conflict with the OpenOffice.org trademark. Using
> another
> >> name is clearly not the best solution for all of
> us: users
> >> and customers, the ASF and Team OpenOffice.org.
> This should
> >> be motivation enough to work on a better
> solution.
> >> 
> >> Just one more paragraph with my personal thoughts:
> We
> >> recognized our mistakes! Reason for the mistake
> was to get
> >> donations to hire full-time developers. We are
> also working
> >> hard on other ideas to get funding but we are not
> there yet!
> >> We want to be a committer to the Apache OpenOffice
> podling
> >> and we basically share the same goals. We inserted
> a very
> >> prominent link to the ASF on our website (see the
> box "Home
> >> of the Development Project" on
> teamopenoffice.org). I hope
> >> that this email does not have a negative impact on
> our
> >> chance to establish a cooperative relationship
> between Team
> >> OpenOffice.org and the Apache OpenOffice project.
> Does it?
> >> We are not evil!
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> Goetz
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> 

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