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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Subject RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons
Date Sat, 17 Dec 2011 00:13:37 GMT
Rob,

As far as I am concerned, unless those icons are issued by the OASIS ODF Adoption TC, in a
way that they are usable with anyone's ODF-supporting file associations, that discussion doesn't
count.  (If the OASIS ODF Adoption TC did something like that, that would be cool and consistent
with the notion of making ODF support visible.)

It seems to me that to identify icons with file associations of specific ODF-supporting products
is misleading.  It seems that having no text in the icons works just fine everywhere else.
 It's very difficult to work nominative use into an icon, in any case.

The problem is the application-specific file associations, not the fact that the ODF-recommended
file extensions and the OpenDocument format are employed.  Unfortunately, the icon associations
are for combinations of format and application.  I think employing an ODF insignia not from
OASIS in this dual way is over-reaching.

That's my view.  It has been my view all along, but I wasn't reminded until I saw the icons
on Drew's OOOUSERS page.

POSSIBLE USEFUL SOLUTION: 

When OpenOffice.org 3.3.0 registers icons for non-ODF file formats (see the PS), it often
uses icons without the ODF but with a little gull symbol in the lower right corner.  (It would
help if it were a little larger on the smaller icon sizes and in place of the larger circle
it is attached to.)  I don't know what LibreOffice does under the same conditions.  If the
"ODF" icons also had that little symbol to indicate that it is an association of ODF format
with OpenOffice.org/Apache OpenOffice, I would be happier.

I know what Microsoft Office does for non-associated ODF file types - they use the Microsoft
Office icons.  I suppose they could also stick little ODF tags in the corners of those too,
when they are for ODF-format documents that will be file-association opened and edited by
Microsoft Office applications?

Sticking with application-specific icons for word-processing, spreadsheet, and presentation
documents seems to have worked happily just fine across products.  Even if they are application-specific
icons based on a generic style for the ODF cases.


 - Dennis

PS: Oh great.  I installed the Italian OO.o 3.3.0 and it took over my file associations. 
Well, it is a great way to practice Italian.  It also replaced icons for Microsoft Office
files (there being no Microsoft Office installed on that VM).  They don't have ODF on them
though, just a tiny OpenOffice.org gull symbol in the lower right corner.  They are also ugly
gray.  The Gray OO.o ODF icons with the stark blue box and the letters are there too.  MORE
WEIRDNESS: For a *.sxw, the "ODF" panel is there but it is just an empty box and the Type
is listed as "OpenOffice.org 1.1."  (This is the OASIS ODF 1.0 specification.)

Hmm, so OpenOffice.org-it 3.3.0 stole the associations that were already set for LibreOffice
3.4.3.  And they are gone from the Open With ... options too, although Symphony.exe remains.
 I wonder if this is because of the problem of using the same filenames for the programs (soffice,
etc.).  What I like about the LO icons, in addition to being cleaner while recognizable, is
that the "de facto" color choices for word processing, spreadsheet, and presentation are being
honored.  I don't know about drawing, database, and formula, but those icons are distinctive
and suggestive enough.  The Explorer file Type entries are wonderful: "Foglio elettronico
di Microsoft Excel 97-2003", etc.  I get to work on the "gli" pronuncia.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 04:59
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <orcmid@apache.org> wrote:
> Ahem:
>
>   The names "OASIS", "OpenDocument", "Open Document Format"
>   and "ODF" are trademarks of OASIS, the owner and developer
>   of this specification, and should only be used to refer to
>   the organization and its official outputs.  OASIS welcomes
>   reference to, and implementation and use of, specifications,
>   while reserving the right to enforce its marks against
>   misleading uses.  Please see
>   http:www.oasis-open.org/who/trademark.php for above [sic]
>   guidance.
>
> From the Notices front matter, p.3 of Open Document Format for
> Office Applications (OpenDocument) v1.1, OASIS Standard,
> 1 Feb 2007.
>
> The same notice appears in the ODF 1.2 specification documents.
>

I don't see a misleading use here, Dennis, so long as the application
that uses these icons has the required notices, per their trademark
policy.

Als note that these icons were discussed and reviewed at length by the
OASIS ODF Adoption TC.

-Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 17:44
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons
>
> For what it's worth Part II: I just checked the installed-icon sizes of all
> the LibreOffice ones, and they do just fine without any letters or wording on
> them at all.  (They don't have the extra-large ones that will be shown if
> available on Windows 7, so one of the smaller one appears at that size
> instead.)
>
> I assume if ODF "branding" is used, those icons can be used by any
> ODF-supporting implementation?
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 17:26
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: old colored vs new monochrome icons
>
> For what it's worth, absent some sort of conformance test for ODF documents, I
> am not that thrilled to see OpenOffice provide icons that may suggest a bit
> too much alignment with the ODF specifications.
>
> (I was similarly distracted when the OOoAuthors decided to become the
> ODFAuthors, but what they write about is OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice at the
> user level.)
>
> I'm not sure OASIS would be pleased either, but I have no interest in pursuing
> that question.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:pfg@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 15:24
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
>
>
> --- Gio 15/12/11, drew <drew@baseanswers.com> ha scritto:
> ...
>
>>
>> Just a heads up - I've started coloring the current
>> monochrome set also,
>
> COOL! Thanks for letting us know!
>
>> I;m taking a very minimalist approach - sometime over the
>>
>> There really is two simple ways that I see
>> - one just change the ODF box
>
> I think just changing the ODF box would be fine, but it's
> a great idea to modify only the big scale icon first
> to see how it looks.
>
> Pedro.

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