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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:18:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Pedro Giffuni <pfg@apache.org>
Reply-To: pfg@apache.org
Subject: Re: GPL'd dictionaries (was Re: ftp.services.openoffice.org?)
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org, dennis.hamilton@acm.org
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--- On Sun, 11/6/11, Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org> wrote:=0A...=0A> Dennis =
E. Hamilton  wrote:=0A> > +1 I heartily agree with Dave's suggestion.=0A> >=
=0A> > The issue has been made very clear by Andrea and I=0A> think it woul=
d be good to raise an issue on the LEGAL JIRA.=0A> =A0(Registration require=
d, but I don't think committer status=0A> is needed.) =A0Also, legal-discus=
s@ apache.org is an useful=0A> place, but my experience is that eventually =
a LEGAL JIRA=0A> issue will obtain more consistent attention.=0A> >=0A> =0A=
> Just make sure that you explain what a spell checking=0A> dictionary is.=
=0A> Otherwise any legal types will be confused.=A0 This is=0A> not a dicti=
onary like Webster's, with words and definitions,=0A> where the definitions=
 are creative content.=A0 A spell checking=0A> dictionary is more of a word=
 list.=0A=0AMakefiles are also a basically a list with little or no=0Acreat=
ive content and they don't even leave a trace in the code=0Abut we are reli=
censing them.=0A=0AI am concerned that we are talking about the GPL. If it=
=0Awere MPL or a documentation license it would be different=0Abut last tim=
e we discussed it we were not accepting copyleft=0Adocumentation either.=0A=
=0Acheers,=0A=0APedro.=0A> =A0 I'm not sure what the creative expression is=
 in a=0A> list of all common=0A> words in a language and how that could be=
=0A> copyrighted.=A0 Of course, I=0A> am not a lawyer.=A0 But this case see=
ms relevant:=0A> =0A> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural=0A> =0A> =
> I also think Pedro raises an important concern. =A0My=0A> sense of other =
materials I have seen about that is binaries=0A> (or at least not human-rea=
dable and editable) might work=0A> since it is possible to make it clear th=
at a non-Apache=0A> license applies and there is no confusion by having sou=
rce=0A> anywhere in a release for something with an unacceptable=0A> licens=
e. =A0I don't know how this applies to the present=0A> case. =A0I suspect i=
t has some bearing on how safe inclusion=0A> of various dictionaries in bin=
ary distributions is seen to=0A> be.=0A> >=0A> > =A0- Dennis=0A> >=0A> > --=
---Original Message-----=0A> > From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.=
net]=0A> > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 12:57=0A> > To: ooo-dev@incubato=
r.apache.org=0A> > Subject: Re: GPL'd dictionaries (was Re:=0A> ftp.service=
s.openoffice.org?)=0A> >=0A> > HI Andrea,=0A> >=0A> > This looks like some =
good questions for Apache Legal.=0A> You should send this to legal-discuss@=
a.o.=0A> >=0A> > Regards,=0A> > Dave=0A> >=0A> > On Nov 6, 2011, at 11:06 A=
M, Andrea Pescetti wrote:=0A> >=0A> >> On 05/11/2011 Gianluca Turconi wrote=
:=0A> >>> 2011/11/5 Pedro Giffuni=0A> >>>> I have been looking at the situa=
tion of=0A> the dictionaries,=0A> >>>> and particular the italian dictionar=
y.=0A> >>>> You are right that it will not be covered=0A> by the SGA.=0A> >=
>=0A> >> Sure, and to be more precise there are no portions=0A> of which Or=
acle has the copyright in the Italian dictionary.=0A> And we are discussing=
 about three completeley separate tools=0A> (this is true of all languages)=
: a dictionary (used for=0A> spell-checking), a thesaurus (for synonyms) an=
d hyphenations=0A> patterns. Each has its own licence and copyright holders=
; in=0A> most cases, hyphenation patterns come from the LaTeX=0A> project.=
=0A> >>=0A> >>>> Perhaps more worrying is that the italian=0A> dictionary i=
s=0A> >>>> the only dictionary under the GPL; most=0A> others are triple=0A=
> >>>> licensed (LGPL/MPL/GPL).=0A> >>>> We are not allowed to use it, so i=
t will=0A> be removed=0A> >>>> from the SVN server for sure.=0A> >>=0A> >> =
The fundamental thing to consider here is that=0A> dictionaries cannot be c=
onsidered like libraries, for the=0A> following reasons:=0A> >> - OpenOffic=
e.org dictionaries are not code; their=0A> binary form is coincident with t=
heir source form.=0A> >> - OpenOffice.org dictionaries are not a=0A> depend=
ency: they are pluggable data files, and they are=0A> packaged (all of them=
, even in the installer for native=0A> builds) as extensions to remark that=
 there is no dependency=0A> whatsoever on them.=0A> >> - OpenOffice.org dic=
tionaries fall in the "mere=0A> aggregation" provision in the GPL license; =
even though it is=0A> customary to distribute a package containing, say, th=
e=0A> Italian version of OpenOffice.org and the Italian=0A> dictionary, it =
is considered the same as distributing an=0A> Ubuntu ISO file, containing s=
oftware with different licenses=0A> aggregated together.=0A> >>=0A> >> The =
existing Apache policy probably assumes that=0A> we are talking about code =
and that the (L)GPL libraries=0A> constitute a dependency, and it was proba=
bly built by=0A> examining what the implications of (L)GPL components would=
=0A> have been in that case. But this is a much different=0A> situation.=0A=
> >>=0A> >>>> I am not a lawyer and I don't have any=0A> idea how the=0A> >=
>>> GPL could be enforced in this case, but=0A> things are not nice.=0A> >>=
=0A> >> I can't understand these worries about enforcing=0A> the GPL. We ev=
en got an answer from the Free Software=0A> Foundation that said it is abso=
lutely OK to include GPL=0A> dictionaries into OpenOffice.org, since it is =
"mere=0A> aggregation"; see the (long) story in=0A> >> https://issues.apach=
e.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3D65039=0A> >>=0A> >>> We've discussed a lot abou=
t this issue, but=0A> =A0there isn't any consensus yet=0A> >>> about *how *=
to solve the problem, in a=0A> pragmatic way that doesn't include a=0A> >>>=
 license change.=0A> >>=0A> >> Gianluca is right, in our situation we won't=
 be=0A> able to change the license of the dictionary and thesaurus=0A> (at =
least, not to Apache License); we might get the=0A> hyphenation patterns re=
leased under the Apache License, but=0A> since virtually all of them are ta=
ken from the LaTeX project=0A> it's probably better that the legal team che=
cks whether it's=0A> fine to import from the LaTeX project with the existin=
g=0A> license.=0A> >>=0A> >>> An AOOo without a native language GUI and=0A>=
 linguistic tools would be just=0A> >>> useless outside the anglosaxon worl=
d and,=0A> indeed, a rather disastrous=0A> >>> presentation of the new proj=
ect for people who=0A> don't speak English.=0A> >>=0A> >> Sure, especially =
considering that the project=0A> description says that OpenOffice.org suppo=
rts 110=0A> languages...=0A> >>=0A> >> What I would recommend is:=0A> >>=0A=
> >> 1) Recheck the Apache policy and find out the=0A> rationale behind it;=
 I have nothing to teach to the legal=0A> team, but this is a very rare cas=
e where the "virality" of=0A> GPL does not apply.=0A> >>=0A> >> 2) See if w=
e can find a way to keep dictionaries=0A> as they are; note that no diction=
ary is developed in the OOo=0A> trunk, they are synchronized from time to t=
ime, usually=0A> before a release; the Italian dictionary SVN trunk, for=0A=
> example, is not in the OOo sources. Even just the=0A> possibility to prov=
ide an extension that can be included in=0A> binary releases would be OK fo=
r me.=0A> >>=0A> >> 3) If there is really no way to include a GPL=0A> exten=
sion this way, then we should think about downloading=0A> the extension at =
installation time. But we managed to get=0A> Sun and the FSF agree to ship =
dictionaries in the most=0A> convenient way (i.e., included in the installe=
r), so we=0A> might succeed this time as well.=0A> >>=0A> >> Regards,=0A> >=
> =A0Andrea.=0A> >=0A> >=0A>