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Subject: Re: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ openoffice.org e-mail addresses
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From: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <1320182383.70207.YahooMailNeo@web161421.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:38:50 -0700
Cc: "orcmid@apache.org" <orcmid@apache.org>,
 'Lawrence Rosen' <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>
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References: <016101cc98b7$bacd0fe0$30672fa0$@apache.org>
 <049501cc98be$68f003b0$3ad00b10$@com>
 <048801cc98d9$09788400$1c698c00$@apache.org>
 <1320182383.70207.YahooMailNeo@web161421.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org

Hi Joe,

On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:

> Sigh, forwarding aliases are simply rows in a
> databasesomewhere.  At one point that database
> was owned by Oracle, and they certainly can
> transfer it's contents to us without any concerns
> about privacy violations.  This has nothing to
> do with mailing list subscriptions, which are
> a completely separate issue.  If Oracle doesn't
> transfer the forward data to us, they stop working
> altogether, and no reasonable active users are expecting
> that to happen.  OTOH I have no interest at all in
> supporting the continued use of those forwarders
> beyond their existence in legacy OOo applications,
> and even there I'd like to see a reasonable and concerted
> effort to phase them out completely over a significant
> time period.

I think most of us agree that we do not want to keep these @OOo =
forwarders around for very long.

>=20
>=20
> I didn't see anyone respond to my earlier suggestion,
> so I fear I may have been too reasonable forthis list.

Sorry, I should have. Whatever is decided you are the one who will help =
make it so!

Best Regards,
Dave


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> ________________________________
>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <orcmid@apache.org>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc: 'Lawrence Rosen' <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:58 PM
>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ openoffice.org e-mail =
addresses
>>=20
>> <orcmid response=3D"in-line" />
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lawrence Rosen [mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com]
>> =
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201111.mbox/%3=
c049501cc98be$68f003b0$3ad00b10$@com%3e>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:48
>> To: orcmid@apache.org; 'OOo-dev Apache Incubator '
>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ openoffice.org e-mail =
addresses
>>=20
>> Dennis Hamilton wrote:
>>> There are problems concerning migration of
>>> yourname@openoffice.org, listname@openoffice.org, and
>>> servicename@openoffice.org.  Consequently, all
>> ? yourname@openoffice.org addresses will be shut down when the
>>> migration goes into its final stages sometime in November.
>>=20
>> Is openoffice.org going away or itself being renamed in November? I =
must have=20
>> missed that announcement....
>>=20
>> <orcmid>
>>   No, openoffice.org, the domain name, is being preserved,
>>   along with migration of the site's static content and the
>>   interactive bugzilla, wiki, and forums services.
>>=20
>>   There are other services of the web site that are not
>>   being preserved.  This includes mailing lists that
>>   are operated (with addresses such as users@ openoffice.org)
>>   and an e-mail forwarding and identification service
>>   using addresses like myname@ openoffice.org (not
>>   entirely unlike orcmid@ apache.org and orcmid as an ID).
>>=20
>>   Some services running at the original http:// *.OO.o
>>   web locations rely on the myname and myname@ OO.o as
>>   part of an identity system.  It is also the case that
>>   myname@ OO.o is a kind of widely-available vanity
>>   email address that is forwarded by the service @ OO.o.
>>   These addresses have been used, of course, as also a way
>>   to receive mail, with the myname@ OO.o forwarded to a
>>   "real" receiving address specified by the holder of
>>   myname@ OO.o.
>> </orcmid>
>>=20
>>>   1. The presumption is that these addresses (and sometimes the
>>> services) cannot be preserved in the migration of the
>>> http://*.openoffice.org properties from Oracle custody to
>>> Apache custody, even though the domain name can be preserved.
>>=20
>> I don't understand that presumption. Custody of a website has nothing =
to do=20
>> with the addresses within it or accessing it.
>>=20
>> <orcmid>
>>   The problem is not with custody but with services operated
>>   at that address once the domain and the hosting is in
>>   Apache custody.  The presumption is that there will be no
>>   migration of the software nor the data that supports the e-mail
>>   forwarding and the user's ability to control the destination of
>>   the e-mail forwarding.  So, when the hosting is done by
>>   Apache, it is expected that this service and its data will
>>   be lost.
>>=20
>>   Note, this is not so much about the addresses of the site,
>>   but how name@ OO.o is forwarded when it is not
>>   actually the address of part of the site (or, in the case
>>   of mailing lists, even when it is).
>> </orcmid>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>   2. There is an untested presumption that it is not legal to
>>> transfer those forwarding accounts because of rules about
>>> privacy and European trans-national data-sharing regulations.
>>=20
>> If you can articulate this concern more clearly, I'll forward it to =
European=20
>> attorneys who can advise us.
>>=20
>> <orcmid>
>>   The holder of a myname@ openoffice.org has a password for
>>   managing this little account.  In addition, the email
>>   address to which myname @OO.o is forwarded is kept in
>>   the account record.  Other information and parameters
>>   are either public or not personal.
>>      If the e-mail address to which forwarding occurs is
>>   considered private data, there is a concern that having
>>   the list be moved into Apache custody might constitute
>>   an infraction of some privacy policy or even regulatory
>>   policies concerning the handling and sharing of private
>>   information.
>>      The current location of storage of the list and
>>   operation of the forwarding service may be material
>>   factors in this case.
>> </orcmid>
>>=20
>>=20
>>> There is speculation that the disruption of e-mail is tolerable
>>> and that most of the current accounts have been abandoned.
>>> That view seems to ignore the importance of these identifiers
>>> as part of the provenance structure for contributions to the
>>> open-source project and the integrity of the code base and
>>> related artifacts.
>>=20
>> I cannot personally judge the technical obstacles you identify, but =
my gut=20
>> tells me that we shouldn't disrupt the existing flow of Open Office =
activities=20
>> simply because ownership has transferred to Apache. Nor will it be =
reasonable=20
>> to ask our Infra team to manage 100K+ additional email accounts.
>>=20
>> Can you advise us what the minimum that has to be done in order to =
let Open=20
>> Office continue in non-crisis mode about this?
>>=20
>> <orcmid>
>>   There are two minima that I see.
>>=20
>>   One is to allow the forwarding system to cease operation
>>   and let the breakdowns be whatever they are.
>>=20
>>   The other is to arrange for the forwarding service to be
>>   migrated along with the site and operated as part of the
>>   re-hosted site still under the openoffice.org domain.
>>   This will require cooperation between Oracle and Apache
>>   Infrastructure.  Depending on the software involved, it
>>   will involve the PPMC providing technical administration
>>   for the maintenance of the service.
>>=20
>>   If the forwarding is migrated, there would be no provision
>>   for adding new users.  Current users would be responsible
>>   for maintaining their own forwarding and, when desirable,
>>   retiring their use of the myname @OO.o at their
>>   convenience when there is no concern for someone attempting
>>   to send mail to it or use it as the basis for some sort of
>>   registration.
>>=20
>>   This is independent from the concern about shut-down of
>>   mailing lists whose names are, similarly, listname @oO.o.
>>   Mailing lists and their archives are operated in an entirely
>>   different way and that is a separate problem, despite
>>   certain functional similarities.
>> </orcmid>.
>>=20
>>=20
>> /Larry
>>=20
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:orcmid@apache.org]
>> =
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201111.mbox/%3=
c016101cc98b7$bacd0fe0$30672fa0$@apache.org%3e>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:00 AM
>>> To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator
>>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>>> Subject: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ openoffice.org e-mail =
addresses
>>>=20
>>> There are problems concerning migration of yourname@ openoffice.org,
>>> listname@
>>> openoffice.org, and servicename@ openoffice.org.  Consequently, all
>>> yourname@
>>> openoffice.org addresses will be shut down when the migration goes =
into
>>> its
>>> final stages sometime in November.
>>>=20
>>> I don't have a solution.  I have an appraisal of the issue.  It is
>>> something
>>> that requires mutual understanding and, out of our mutual attention,
>>> the
>>> prospect of a workable solution.
>>=20
>>=20