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From Dave Fisher <>
Subject Re: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail addresses
Date Tue, 01 Nov 2011 23:02:21 GMT

On Nov 1, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Dave Fisher <> wrote:
>> Hi Joe,
>> On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>> Sigh, forwarding aliases are simply rows in a
>>> databasesomewhere.  At one point that database
>>> was owned by Oracle, and they certainly can
>>> transfer it's contents to us without any concerns
>>> about privacy violations.  This has nothing to
>>> do with mailing list subscriptions, which are
>>> a completely separate issue.  If Oracle doesn't
>>> transfer the forward data to us, they stop working
>>> altogether, and no reasonable active users are expecting
>>> that to happen.  OTOH I have no interest at all in
>>> supporting the continued use of those forwarders
>>> beyond their existence in legacy OOo applications,
>>> and even there I'd like to see a reasonable and concerted
>>> effort to phase them out completely over a significant
>>> time period.
>> I think most of us agree that we do not want to keep these @OOo forwarders
>> around for very long.
> I am sorry but most of my virtual life is wired to my @ooo account. Which I
> by no means want to give up.
> I wonder how many of this opinions are from people that have never used one
> and have no problem thinking is not good acording to their world. For me it
> would be similar to getting beheaded with a wooden knife.

I can relate. Due to an acquisition I recently had to give up my email address of 15 years.

I've been thinking that a compromise might be to offer AOOo(i) committers explicit rows in
the OOo forwarding table that JoeS mentioned.


>>> I didn't see anyone respond to my earlier suggestion,
>>> so I fear I may have been too reasonable forthis list.
>> Sorry, I should have. Whatever is decided you are the one who will help
>> make it so!
>> Best Regards,
>> Dave
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <>
>>>> To:
>>>> Cc: 'Lawrence Rosen' <>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:58 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail
>> addresses
>>>> <orcmid response="in-line" />
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Lawrence Rosen []
>>>> <
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:48
>>>> To:; 'OOo-dev Apache Incubator '
>>>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>>>> Subject: RE: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail
>> addresses
>>>> Dennis Hamilton wrote:
>>>>> There are problems concerning migration of
>>>>>,, and
>>>>>  Consequently, all
>>>> ? addresses will be shut down when the
>>>>> migration goes into its final stages sometime in November.
>>>> Is going away or itself being renamed in November? I
>> must have
>>>> missed that announcement....
>>>> <orcmid>
>>>>  No,, the domain name, is being preserved,
>>>>  along with migration of the site's static content and the
>>>>  interactive bugzilla, wiki, and forums services.
>>>>  There are other services of the web site that are not
>>>>  being preserved.  This includes mailing lists that
>>>>  are operated (with addresses such as users@
>>>>  and an e-mail forwarding and identification service
>>>>  using addresses like myname@ (not
>>>>  entirely unlike orcmid@ and orcmid as an ID).
>>>>  Some services running at the original http:// *.OO.o
>>>>  web locations rely on the myname and myname@ OO.o as
>>>>  part of an identity system.  It is also the case that
>>>>  myname@ OO.o is a kind of widely-available vanity
>>>>  email address that is forwarded by the service @ OO.o.
>>>>  These addresses have been used, of course, as also a way
>>>>  to receive mail, with the myname@ OO.o forwarded to a
>>>>  "real" receiving address specified by the holder of
>>>>  myname@ OO.o.
>>>> </orcmid>
>>>>>  1. The presumption is that these addresses (and sometimes the
>>>>> services) cannot be preserved in the migration of the
>>>>> http://* properties from Oracle custody to
>>>>> Apache custody, even though the domain name can be preserved.
>>>> I don't understand that presumption. Custody of a website has nothing
>> to do
>>>> with the addresses within it or accessing it.
>>>> <orcmid>
>>>>  The problem is not with custody but with services operated
>>>>  at that address once the domain and the hosting is in
>>>>  Apache custody.  The presumption is that there will be no
>>>>  migration of the software nor the data that supports the e-mail
>>>>  forwarding and the user's ability to control the destination of
>>>>  the e-mail forwarding.  So, when the hosting is done by
>>>>  Apache, it is expected that this service and its data will
>>>>  be lost.
>>>>  Note, this is not so much about the addresses of the site,
>>>>  but how name@ OO.o is forwarded when it is not
>>>>  actually the address of part of the site (or, in the case
>>>>  of mailing lists, even when it is).
>>>> </orcmid>
>>>>>  2. There is an untested presumption that it is not legal to
>>>>> transfer those forwarding accounts because of rules about
>>>>> privacy and European trans-national data-sharing regulations.
>>>> If you can articulate this concern more clearly, I'll forward it to
>> European
>>>> attorneys who can advise us.
>>>> <orcmid>
>>>>  The holder of a myname@ has a password for
>>>>  managing this little account.  In addition, the email
>>>>  address to which myname @OO.o is forwarded is kept in
>>>>  the account record.  Other information and parameters
>>>>  are either public or not personal.
>>>>     If the e-mail address to which forwarding occurs is
>>>>  considered private data, there is a concern that having
>>>>  the list be moved into Apache custody might constitute
>>>>  an infraction of some privacy policy or even regulatory
>>>>  policies concerning the handling and sharing of private
>>>>  information.
>>>>     The current location of storage of the list and
>>>>  operation of the forwarding service may be material
>>>>  factors in this case.
>>>> </orcmid>
>>>>> There is speculation that the disruption of e-mail is tolerable
>>>>> and that most of the current accounts have been abandoned.
>>>>> That view seems to ignore the importance of these identifiers
>>>>> as part of the provenance structure for contributions to the
>>>>> open-source project and the integrity of the code base and
>>>>> related artifacts.
>>>> I cannot personally judge the technical obstacles you identify, but my
>> gut
>>>> tells me that we shouldn't disrupt the existing flow of Open Office
>> activities
>>>> simply because ownership has transferred to Apache. Nor will it be
>> reasonable
>>>> to ask our Infra team to manage 100K+ additional email accounts.
>>>> Can you advise us what the minimum that has to be done in order to let
>> Open
>>>> Office continue in non-crisis mode about this?
>>>> <orcmid>
>>>>  There are two minima that I see.
>>>>  One is to allow the forwarding system to cease operation
>>>>  and let the breakdowns be whatever they are.
>>>>  The other is to arrange for the forwarding service to be
>>>>  migrated along with the site and operated as part of the
>>>>  re-hosted site still under the domain.
>>>>  This will require cooperation between Oracle and Apache
>>>>  Infrastructure.  Depending on the software involved, it
>>>>  will involve the PPMC providing technical administration
>>>>  for the maintenance of the service.
>>>>  If the forwarding is migrated, there would be no provision
>>>>  for adding new users.  Current users would be responsible
>>>>  for maintaining their own forwarding and, when desirable,
>>>>  retiring their use of the myname @OO.o at their
>>>>  convenience when there is no concern for someone attempting
>>>>  to send mail to it or use it as the basis for some sort of
>>>>  registration.
>>>>  This is independent from the concern about shut-down of
>>>>  mailing lists whose names are, similarly, listname @oO.o.
>>>>  Mailing lists and their archives are operated in an entirely
>>>>  different way and that is a separate problem, despite
>>>>  certain functional similarities.
>>>> </orcmid>.
>>>> /Larry
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton []
>>>> <
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:00 AM
>>>>> To: OOo-dev Apache Incubator
>>>>> Cc: 'Dave Fisher'; 'Rob Weir'; 'Lawrence Rosen'
>>>>> Subject: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ e-mail
>> addresses
>>>>> There are problems concerning migration of yourname@,
>>>>> listname@
>>>>>, and servicename@  Consequently, all
>>>>> yourname@
>>>>> addresses will be shut down when the migration goes
>> into
>>>>> its
>>>>> final stages sometime in November.
>>>>> I don't have a solution.  I have an appraisal of the issue.  It is
>>>>> something
>>>>> that requires mutual understanding and, out of our mutual attention,
>>>>> the
>>>>> prospect of a workable solution.
> -- 
> *Alexandro Colorado*
> ** EspaƱol
> fingerprint: E62B CF77 1BEA 0749 C0B8 50B9 3DE6 A84A 68D0 72E6

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