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Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
From: Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
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Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:53:36 -0700
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org

Hi Rob,

Your technical item was an interesting distraction. It may have a use. I =
think below you give a good explanation of your plan.

Let me express a recommendation that ought to alleviate my concerns =
about the full MX issues.

I am still concerned that we may be abandoning a database of over =
450,000 OOo users, but that is another, related, topic.

On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>>=20
>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation =
e-mail and
>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It =
seemed to me
>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to =
be
>> retired.
>>=20
>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the =
to-be-retired
>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber =
e-mail
>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more =
than your
>> experiment did.
>>=20
>=20
> So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
> all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
> of the lists?
>=20
> Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the =
user:
>=20
> 1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
> an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
> first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
> to come unsolicited.
>=20
> 2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email
>=20
> 3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
> click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
> in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
> against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
> to join our list?

Got it. One email - repeated.

If the text around the mailto: informs the user not to use an =
@openoffice.org address for their new subscription then my concerns are =
moot. It should be something like "All personal @openoffice.org email =
address forwarders will be dropped on migration."

The text of this email needs to be carefully considered on ooo-dev. =
Since you plan a review then I am fine.=20

I also think that the one (or more) OOo legacy ML that are being =
continued should be clearly mentioned as well.

Look at this email as the one opportunity to get a clear message about =
AOOo out to all of these subscribers. We have a difficult story for the =
user and it needs to be the most positive and consistent message =
possible.

>=20
> This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
> volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
> that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
> any such approach.

I am looking at this as due diligence before making a decision where =
there is no going back.

Regards,
Dave

>=20
> -Rob
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>>=20
>>  - Dennis
>>=20
>> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>>=20
>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be =
moderators on the
>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move =
prospect would
>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have =
access to
>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be =
expected to
>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>>=20
>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle =
Privacy
>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>>=20
>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list =
members,
>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of =
this.
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>=20
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially =
because it
>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  =
If the
>>> list
>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic =
operation
>>> could
>>> be considered.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>  - Dennis
>>>=20
>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>=20
>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones =
that are
>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do =
this might
>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message =
in all NL
>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I =
notice
>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that =
should be
>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is =
very
>>> useful
>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what =
OOo lists
>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original =
list(s), etc.
>>>=20
>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>>=20
>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the =
ooo-younameit
>>> @
>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ =
OO.o lists.
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pescetti@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>=20
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing =
list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 =
lists
>>>> into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being =
"project
>>>> owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 =
lists).
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing =
list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I =
did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>>=20
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For =
example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>>=20
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=3Dbar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>=20
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =3D
>>>=20
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----------------
>>>=20
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>=20
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>=20
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>=20
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>=20
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>>=20
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>>=20
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=3Dbar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>=20
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>=20
>>> or click here:
>>>=20
>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=3Dbar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>>=20
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a =
fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache =
Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>>=20
>>> -Rob
>>>=20
>>=20