Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: local policy)
Message-ID: <4E9F57BF.5040704@harbornet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:05:35 -0700
From: John Boyle <jboyle@harbornet.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1;
 rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
References: 
 <CAP-ksog3iwjSOJtafbSHzeKPL2XtAk8jDtLWBa7h09OjhxUfYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15BB96A4-FAB6-4FFB-A9C4-5DD92A42D3C1@comcast.net>
 <CAP-ksogDUcVt8+LOiKOqvDJ94Dp=VLo65gj9CRRFpLSOp4-hDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37A6B1C6-3C4D-41B4-8679-A12DBBB186BE@comcast.net>
 <CAP-ksojP5eMH=xtOV4caCqz12kUPVTqHCPMfJnJjxmezdBTeiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4E9C9143.3090801@gmail.com>
 <CAP-ksoh_OfbHyJtF+EmAsDAgHeBbvv2_inzd=7vtqGWfyTJ21A@mail.gmail.com>
 <000101cc8e90$97a3a1e0$c6eae5a0$@acm.org>
 <CAP-ksoi_radXyUcHOczMJyQFPzX48WMzuwXaaU-S2=JtpmkiPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4E9F3405.8000406@harbornet.com> <017f01cc8ea2$a78a3300$f69e9900$@acm.org>
In-Reply-To: <017f01cc8ea2$a78a3300$f69e9900$@acm.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 10/19/2011 2:04 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> ******
> This E-Mail possibly is a digitally signed message with Security
> Certificate.  As this email was modified at the Gateway by MailScan,
> your browser might give "Invalid Signature" warning.  Please ignore
> this warning.
> ******
>
>
> John,
>
> The list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org is proposed to be the replacement for
> users@OO.o and discuss@OO.o.  You can subscribe to ooo-users@ by sending an
> e-mail from the e-mail address you want to be subscribed from to
> ooo-users-subscribe@incubator.apache.org .  If that succeeds, you will receive
> a response from the list robot, ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org that tells
> you what to do next to confirm your subscription.
>
> I see that you were having trouble subscribing to ooo-users at the beginning
> of September.  Is that still not working for you?
>
>   - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Boyle [mailto:jboyle@harbornet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:33
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On 10/19/2011 12:21 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>   wrote:
>>> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements,
>>> etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.
>>> You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of
>>> lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how
>>> [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the
>>> just-subscribed list.
>>>
>>> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private
>>> and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as
>>> announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>>>
>> FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
>> touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
>> reports, commit notifications, etc.
>>
>>> Here are the www mailing lists:<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.
>>> You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.
>>> To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply
>>> to List in the little pull-down on the form.
>>>
>>> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab
>>> of<http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for
>>> managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you
>>> must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these
>>> pages.)
>>>
>>>    - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<kay.schenk@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>>>> Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>     wrote:
>>>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>>>> above lists.
>>>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>>>> into any issues about that.
>>>>
>>> Hi Kay,
>>>
>>> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
>>> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
>>> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
>>> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
>>> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>>    The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>>>> disagrees..
>>>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>>>
>>>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link
>>>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>>>> later.
>>>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>>>> put...sorrry!]
>>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>>>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>>>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>>>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>>>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> MzK
>>>>
>>>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>>>             -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>>>
> To Rob Weir, et al: I now have the wiki page bookmarked , but as of yet
> I had no idea where to look to see what the recommended new user lists
> or otherwise will be. I do not have any programming skills, I am
> basically just a user of the product. I just happen to think if you're
> going to do this combining And translating, that a list should be made
> of the proposed new lists.I did not know there were 303 lists associated
> with OOo! That is a surprise to me. I am mostly interested in keeping
> some kind of users list active, so that I can learn more of how to use
> the product. I got on the ooo-dev. list mostly by accident, as I wasn't
> clear on how to just get on the new users list. I have stayed on this
> list, as this way I learned what you are planning to do with the whole
> program and it has been very interesting, although I have had to delete
> some because it was beyond me and what I could do. So, can you give me
> an idea of what the new lists will be called and how soon will we be
> forced to change?:-)
To Dennis: Yes, but following the instructions from the message just 
before this one, I am trying again!:-)