From ooo-dev-return-7246-apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Mon Oct 17 14:22:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A9F49296 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:22:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 95221 invoked by uid 500); 17 Oct 2011 14:22:19 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 95036 invoked by uid 500); 17 Oct 2011 14:22:19 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 95028 invoked by uid 99); 17 Oct 2011 14:22:19 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:22:19 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS,T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: domain of acolorado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) Received: from [74.125.82.43] (HELO mail-ww0-f43.google.com) (74.125.82.43) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:22:11 +0000 Received: by wwf10 with SMTP id 10so1961166wwf.0 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:21:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VzctoOxP/Y3q4zRQ3i4hCeAPtNKZNgWR7L98vJ+rKLk=; b=TWej55UliVOQFED71XSvv93gKeIm3MI2OUZzJVT3VA0vVnsKXKSINHK/LQwg9tf0GH 481ZYAEh4CAFRAXT4XzU9JHVSquuFLDB90iYlUFIY5DBJ5iPjhz4JJGArkYGr0Zm1adG dWsyxzHLifw1UPKnb9l5YRPbkD2FZT/Tu0CXk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.208.169 with SMTP id q41mr1964500weo.64.1318861310090; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Sender: acolorado@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.13.19 with HTTP; Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E9C31AE.8040100@shanecurcuru.org> References: <4E9C31AE.8040100@shanecurcuru.org> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:21:49 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: j2YVhTJdzshzPSL4GkXB4_9il-E Message-ID: Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Marketing Team From: Alexandro Colorado To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dee8dce55f0a04af7f5356 X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --0016e6dee8dce55f0a04af7f5356 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Shane Curcuru wrote= : > > > On 10/16/2011 6:01 PM, Graham Lauder wrote: > >> On 10/15/11, Dave Fisher wrote: >> > > > ...snip... > > > - Brand Manager. Dedicated to the OOo brand. >>> >> >> A whole Marketing team task pretty much, a dedicated individual could >> get swamped. >> >> I think that is a little confusion sometimes with the seemingly >> hierarchical nature of legacy OOo projects. Yes each project had a >> =E2=80=9Clead=E2=80=9D and a =E2=80=9Cco-lead=E2=80=9D, the terms howeve= r were somewhat misleading. A >> more accurate description would be an administrator. It is true that >> closer to the core code there was a more =E2=80=9Cmanaged=E2=80=9D proce= ss simply >> because of the corporate heirarchy active in Hamburg and even that had >> flattened out over the life of the project. The =E2=80=9CLead=E2=80=9D = simply had >> access to the admin tools, he certainly did not dictate policy or >> direction, that was generally the result of discussion and consensus. >> >> Branding is simply part of the wider marketing strategy and branding >> right now is what should be our primary marketing focus and a group >> task. Decisions have to be made. >> >> So I'm with Ross on this, we have some excellent people to make up the >> team, those people will each take the lead on whatever task they feel >> that they can contribute best. Really that's not a lot different to >> the way the old OOo marketing project used to function in any case and >> what made it so successful. >> > > That's good to hear, because I've been trying to figure out how to explai= n > Apache styles of working together, especially to contrast them to the pas= t > OOo world. From what I can understand of it, the old organizational styl= e - > of many separate groups, each with leaders, co-leads, managers, whatever = - > is very much the opposite of Apache best practices. > > I would urge people to think of the new "Marketing team" as something ver= y > new, and focus on where we all want to take AOOo. Personally, it really > started to worry me when people call it the "Marketing team", but maybe > that's just me. > > Apache projects do need leaders. But leader isn't at title in an Apache > project. Leadership is more about what you do and how you encourage othe= rs > to follow, rather than directing others or simply doing it all yourself. > I am not sure how to interpret this, I mean Leaders in OOo were that exactly, both ideas are not exclusive of one another. Leads get form by ideas and enterprises, and they get the 'lead title'. I think ASF thinks of leads as a philosophy while OOo thought of it as a Philosophy + Strucutre. Which brings my real questions about how to do with structure. Then we can draw a real difference between both worlds. This goes back to my 'vision' statement previously on this discussion. > > Justin Eerenkrantz has it exactly right in his "ASF: No Jerks Allowed" > presentation, as do many other ASF'ers who give Apache Way talks: > > Whomever has the best idea =E2=80=9Cleads=E2=80=9D > ...until a better idea is presented to the group > and then that person =E2=80=9Cleads=E2=80=9D > > Leadership in Apache projects is getting the community excited and willin= g > to help work on your idea. And being willing to listen to other > perspectives, and to work with the whole community to improve the project > for the project's sake. > A thing here that I would come to question is how people take this 'whole community'. OOo was not a unique community because of many reasons. The mos= t basic one was the language barrier, then you have project specific initiatives. So for example, Extension development vs Core development vs ODF/XML discussions, they had their own mailing list for such topics. Also the amount of issues and communication demanded the segmentation of such things, sometimes segmentation was abused and we got up to 9 different mailing list in the marketing project at one point, creating too much overhead. So first thing is how to make this work with just a few ML where gets discussed everything from soup to nuts. Then is the people who will handle the rudimentary tasks like moderation, project/section announcements/reporting and even "cheerleading" activities you just mentioned. Again those titles gave a structure, if ASF don't manag= e any titles I would like to see how *internal* structure are being handled? > > - Shane > > P.S. And as always: PMCs need to manage their projects independently of > outside influence. This PPMC is the body that's in charge of the future = of > the AOOo project - no one else. There are a few legal, branding, and > organizational details that the board (thru the Apache Incubator in a > podling's case) requires of Apache projects - but technical direction is > solely handled by this PPMC. > > P.P.S. +1 for an ooo-marketing@ list, I'll be on it. > --=20 *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Espa=C3=B1ol http://es.openoffice.org fingerprint: E62B CF77 1BEA 0749 C0B8 50B9 3DE6 A84A 68D0 72E6 --0016e6dee8dce55f0a04af7f5356--