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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: How voting works...
Date Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:32:40 GMT
On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:41 PM, floris v <> wrote:
> Op 19-10-2011 14:00, Rob Weir schreef:
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Ross Gardler
>> <>  wrote:
>>> I'm not going to dig into all the details of how a vote is called in the
>>> ASF.
>>> In posting this I am not asking for the current vote to be recalled,
>>> there is no need.
>>> I am just wanting to flag something that concerns me about how the
>>> vote was called (and as per usual this is just advice from a mentor,
>>> these are not rules that must be adopted).
>>> In an ASF community everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone
>>> should be encouraged to express that opinion in a formal vote, just as
>>> much as they should be encouraged to express their opinions in day to
>>> day discussion.
>> We're very concerned, as we should be, to ensure that everyone, even
>> non-PPMC members, can weigh in on all project discussions and
>> decisions, including policy and governance questions.  As we should.
>> I applaud that commitment to openness.
>> However, the proposal that we're voting on has this clause regarding
>> the support forums:
>>  "Forum governance will be discussed in a publicly readable forum.
>> Write access will be limited to those with at least 10 posts."
>> In other words,  we're agreeing to a proposal where it is not true
>> that "In an ASF community everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone
>> should be encouraged to express that opinion in a formal vote, just as
>>  much as they should be encouraged to express their opinions in day to
>> day discussion."
> *You're forgetting that the forums aren't an almost closed mailing list like
> ooo-dev. How many people are subscribed to ooo-dev?
> As of 9/20 the number of registered users of the forums is 44830 and the
> number of people with over 10 posts still exceeds 1000.
> If we'd open the gates to anyone, you'd probably soon see bored kids pollute
> the discussions with the kind of crap that they now post on Wikipedia.
> If you don't like the forum, I suggest that you just ignore it.

I do care about the forums.  That is why in my feedback I said that I
was concerned that your over-cautious approach cuts you off from
potential sources of useful community feedback.  You already have the
ability to remove posts and users who violate the board standards.
But these should be conduct standards, but post count standards.  You
might have the most brilliant observation come from a new user on
their first day on the list.  I don't think you should assume that
just because someone has made 10 posts on spreadsheet import filters,
that their observations on forum governance are worth hearing, but
someone who has only posted 8 is not worth hearing.  This is very
un-Apache.  My opinion, of course.

And keep in mind that Apache has large mailing lists as well.  users @ has over 3200, for example.


> **Peter aka floris v*
> **
>> When I brought that up in the discussion thread I was shut down by a
>> mentor for introducing an "overly legalistic parsing" of the proposal.
>>  I take that to mean I was thinking too much.   I'll stop now, because
>> honestly the incongruity if our words and actions is shameful and
>> painful to observe.
>> -Rob
>>> It is true that only some members of the community have binding votes.
>>> However, this only becomes important in the event of an absence of
>>> community consensus.
>>> Therefore, when calling a vote please do not word it in such a way
>>> that implies others in the community do not have a vote that counts.
>>> It does count. A responsible PPMC member will use their own vote to
>>> support any appropriate objections from the community. They can only
>>> do that if the community is encouraged to express their views
>>> alongside everyone else..
>>> Specifically, there is no need to define binding votes in the vote
>>> thread, the way Apache Projects vote is well documented and, over
>>> time, the AOOo project will gain its own guidelines. Secondly, do not
>>> list the people who are "important" enough to have a binding vote.
>>> Thirdly, explicitly call for all community members to express their
>>> preferences in the vote.
>>> In other words, make every action of the PPMC as inclusive as possible.
>>> Finally, Denis - thank you for calling the vote.
>>> Ross
>>> --
>>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>>> Programme Leader (Open Development)
>>> OpenDirective

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