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From Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
Date Wed, 19 Oct 2011 19:21:18 GMT
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:
> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements, etc., I think
if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.  You can then use the web pages
that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of lists and work rather quickly.  The archive
view (useful in knowing how [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to
the just-subscribed list.
>
> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private and subscription
is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also
moderated.
>

FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
reports, commit notifications, etc.

> Here are the www mailing lists: <http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.  You
must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.  To make a post, go
to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply to List in the little pull-down on
the form.
>
> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab of <http://openoffice.org/projects>.
 Each project has its own page for managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again,
I think you must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these pages.)
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk <kay.schenk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>> Fisher<dave2wave@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>> above lists.
>>
>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>> into any issues about that.
>>
>
> Hi Kay,
>
> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>
> -Rob
>
>
>>  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>> disagrees..
>>
>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>> put...sorrry!]
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>
>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>
>
>

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