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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
Date Wed, 19 Oct 2011 21:28:22 GMT
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
<> wrote:
> On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
>> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
>> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
>> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
>> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this
> I find the plan well-thought and I agree it is vital to act before the
> existing infrastructure is abandoned, but I propose to make some changes and
> I volunteer to lead this alternative migration at least for the 12 mailing
> lists on the domain. See below for details.

Great.  I welcome the offer of help.  Let's coordinate on the wiki.

>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
>> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed
>> to.
> Perfect. Actually, I remember I already provided this information on a wiki
> page with the "top lists" you created some weeks ago.

I plan on refreshing that list for this effort.  So expect updated data.

>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
>> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
>> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
>> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
>> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
>> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
>> posting date.
> The fundamental difference is here: the N-L mailing lists (including the
> Italian ones) mostly target end users. We shouldn't put any burden on them
> or expect them to be able to follow processes and confirmation e-mails in
> other languages.

We should do some tests to see if we can eliminate the technical
requirement for a confirmation.  List moderators can subscribe users.
But I'm not sure if that triggers a confirmation email to them or not.
 But this is easy to test.

> And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not of
> disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing lists)
> shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old is
> dead and that a new is born, since the product our users will
> be talking about in the mailing lists is still the "old", and
> the fact that the new home is at Apache is not a fundamental difference to
> them; they will continue using the product and taking care, when the time
> comes, of localization and QA; we would scare users and contributors away by
> describing an "old/dead"

I agree.  In many cases this will be the first official message that
the Apache project has given to the lists.  It is long overdue.  We
need to make sure it is a good message.  I do not plan on sending any
message before it is reviewed here on ooo-dev.

> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
> of, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).

Let's map this out on the wiki, to see exactly what new lists we need.

> One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of view, we
> are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a migration. I
> read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to help spammers this
> way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and it would be a suicidal
> move for to shut down mailing lists and leave the majority of
> users in a position where they can say " is dead, to the point
> that even the peer-support mailing lists have been shut down".
>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other
>> languages.
>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the
>> lists.
>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
> OK about this.
>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>> the lists, per:
> I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses still
> work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed by a
> silent closure of the old addresses.

I don;t think we want to set up forwarders for just two weeks.  At
least I'm not volunteering to do that.  But I am happy to extend the
period between initial notification and shutdown.  We could even
repeat the notification and migration instructions.

> Regards,
>  Andrea.

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