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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
Date Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:51:04 GMT

On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi Rob,
>> 
>> This is excellent.
>> 
>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pescetti@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>> 
>> I'm not a lawyer, but if a user has to approve the new subscription that may be enough
to meet even the highest privacy requirements.
>> 
>> Next steps if we were to proceed:
>> 
>> (1) Getting the emails from Oracle.
>> 
> 
> That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
> ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
> Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
> they would make this data available to us.

You are making an assumption. If we asked for only the map of OOo to real emails so that we
can handle the retirement of the forwarder in some way other than the most precipitous (goes
away when the OOo MX moves away from Oracle) we might have a chance. I suppose someone will
need to ask Andrew Rist.

> I was speaking only to the technical steps that someone might take.

Concrete abilities are good to discuss. I thought you were leading us somewhere.

> In any case, I look at this a little differently.  We don't need pure
> numbers.  We're not looking for passive viewers.  If someone is so
> disengaged that they are unwilling to subscribe to a new list, then
> they are probably not going to be active project members.  And if they
> find using mailing lists difficult, then maybe we should be pointing
> them to the phpBB forums, as an easier interface to use?  And for
> ourtreach where we are looking to get the message out to the maximum
> number of users, then we should be looking at social media;  our blog,
> Twitter, Facebook, etc.

I don't want to bikeshed on Social Networks and ML vs. Fora, I want to focus on what is going
to actually happen to the OOo MX and ML infrastructure.

> 
>> (2) Consider the @openoffice.org forwarder and that many subscriptions to the OOo
MLs use that address. If we had that email map even if scrubbed of the name then we can apply
that transformation as well.
>> 
> 
> The email forwarding service is something entirely different.  I'm not
> touching that at all in my proposal.  It is an independent migration
> topic.  As far as I can tell no one has volunteered to do that.

So, you have no real plans to implement re-subscription? Or, if you do you don't have a problem
resubscribing people with emails addresses that are going away in another month?


> 
>> The subscribe email sent would then use the personal email.
>> 
>> The list of OOo emails would be useful for sending warnings that these "vanity" ids
are going away.
>> 
>> It would be great to have a single message about the OOo MX transition.
>> 
> 
> If there is consensus on how we are treating the email forwarder, we
> can certainly mention that in the post to the lists.  But even if we
> don't have an answer on this yet, we can link to a "migration update"
> page that can be kept current with our high-level status of interest
> to the wider ecosystem.

Whatever we say about the OOo ML and MX transition needs to be based in fact and not assumptions.

> 
>> Of note, securityteam@oo.o is being kept. Are there other community MLs on OOo that
should be kept? That's part of your inventory ;-)
>> 
> 
> I'm not touching private lists, at least not initially.  I'm looking
> only at the most-used lists, maybe the top 50 community lists or so.
> We can iterate.  We don't need to do it all at once.

There will be community lists in addition to securityteam@ that will need to be considered.

Given the repeated warnings we are getting about Oracle imminent removal of some resources.
I think we are going to need to execute a plan that encompasses what happens to all of the
OOo MX at once and in a coherent manner.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Rob
> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>> 
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>> 
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>> 
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>> 
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>> 
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>> 
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>> 
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>> 
>>> or click here:
>>>                mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>> 
>> 


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