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From Dave Fisher <dave2w...@comcast.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Marketing Team
Date Fri, 14 Oct 2011 21:32:12 GMT

On Oct 14, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Rob,
>> 
>> I find this response ironic as I was only following your suggestion to make this
discussion more visible. After two days I felt that someone should do it,.
>> 
> 
> The discussion was more than about marketing, right?  I'm just saying
> that it is obvious we need a marketing team, but also obvious that
> they will be busy enough to want their own mailing list. Do you
> disagree?

Certainly a ML soon. Perhaps it is part of a proposal out of this process. I think that there
are other teams to discuss. I am thinking about an AOOo Infrastructure / Migration / Sysadmin
Team. That is complex, but much is known. ....

The point of this discussion is to determine what roles this community needs on a marketing
team. Some of these roles may be temporary or prove unnecessary. There are certainly other
roles. Education? Certification? NL?

> 
> As for the other roles you brought up, I thank you for bring them up
> for more visibility.

You're welcome. And back to .... whoever wants to volunteer their time or opinion. I'm just
trying to get the discussion going.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Rob
> 
>> It's the weekend have a good one and let's discusses teams and roles with other's
input.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>> On Oct 14, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> The real point to this discussion is that the AOOo podling PPC needs a clear
Marketing Team.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If I may make an observation:  the people doing the majority of the
>>> code commits are really not active in the marketing/press/brand
>>> threads. And those that are most active in the marketing/press/brand
>>> threads are not writing a lot of code. This is not a problem.  We have
>>> a diversity of interests.  But it suggests there might be some value
>>> in spinning off an ooo-marketing list first, allow anyone who wishes
>>> to join, and then drill into these other topics.  Maybe the
>>> participants of that list become essentially the "marketing team"?
>>> There is some advantage to letting the coders focus on the code, with
>>> less thread churn, and let other groups concentrate on other
>>> functions.  For things that require project-wide discussions (and not
>>> everything does) we can agree to discuss on ooo-dev as the main list.
>>> Or maybe we create an ooo-general for that.
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 14, 2011, at 1:05 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
wrote:
>>>>>> While discussing this month's PPMC Board Report we discussed making
volunteers from the PPMC responsible for certain roles. We quickly proceeded with a Press
Liaison due to the immediate need. Before settling on a larger set of roles let's have a discussion
and come to a consensus.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Types of roles or teams:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> (1) External or Marketing Team. Involving the relationship of the
AOOo project community with the many communities in the OOo universe.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Press Liaison. (Don Harbison is currently filling this role.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Security Officer. Responsible for security co-ordination with other
entities.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Worf?
>>>>> 
>>>>> But seriously, we already have a security team in place, via the
>>>>> ooo-security list.  Their responsibilities also include security
>>>>> co-ordination.  But we could certainly use another 2 or 3 volunteers
>>>>> there, especially among active coders on the project.
>>>> 
>>>> My thought is if we have someone on the PPMC who volunteers for first chance
to answer security questions on ooo-dev or ooo-users then we will quickly have a common and
measured response.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - TDF Liaison. Dedicated to the special relationship between AOOo
and LO. (Would we have other special relationships?)
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All our relations are special.  But I assume it would be silly to have
>>>>> a liaison to IBM Lotus Symphony.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Brand Manager. Dedicated to the OOo brand.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think of that as being a marketing function.  Could break it out,
>>>>> but these two functions would need to closely coordinate.  Maybe think
>>>>> of it this way:  I could certainly imagine a dedicated ooo-marketing
>>>>> mailing list.  But I don't think an ooo-branding list would get much
>>>>> traffic.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Legal Affairs. Assure that copyright, license, and terms of use
are all proper. That the NOTICE and LICENSE files are correct. Seek copyright assignments
from authors where helpful. (Is this another team?)
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that is a core dev function, since it will mainly involve
>>>>> changing heads in the source files, etc.  With the clarifications we
>>>>> received from Robert, I don't see a problem here.  Also, this is not
>>>>> an ongoing role.  Once we've done the initial IP processing, the
>>>>> committers as a whole pay attention to IP requirements on a daily
>>>>> basis.  So it is important for the committers as a whole to all be
>>>>> familiar with the requirements here.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm willing to move Legal to a different thread. We do need someone to help
with TOU on the migration side. It is more to have one person asking Legal, not several people
with variations.
>>>> 
>>>> I haven't looked at Robert's comments other than I knew we needed to wait
for Andrew to comment.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Social media (or media in general), so press, blog, twitter,
>>>>> facebook, etc.   Or maybe that goes with marketing?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Obviously the answers here will depend on volunteers and how much time
>>>>> they can dedicate to these tasks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2011, at 12:51 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Donald Harbison <dpharbison@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2011, at 9:34 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher
<dave2wave@comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that "we" as the AOOo PPMC will
need to find one or more PPMC
>>>>>>>>> members to fulfill certain external roles.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I am emphasizing EXTERNALLY facing roles. These
people would generally
>>>>>>>>> be people with the talent of handling sensitive issues
in a delicate and
>>>>>>>>> appropriate manner on the list when they arise seemingly
out of place.
>>>>>>>>> Knowing that there are volunteers available will help
the rest of us focus
>>>>>>>>> on code or migration.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps these roles are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) Public face of Security for AOOo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Work on handling security reports occurs
on a private list,
>>>>>>>>>>>> ooo-security.  It is not visible publicly,
or even to the PPMC in
>>>>>>>>>>>> general.  Where there needs to be a public
communication, for example,
>>>>>>>>>>>> to report a vulnerability, it comes from
members of ooo-security.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is all per the recommended process from
Apache Security [1].  The
>>>>>>>>>>>> PPMC is welcome to debate and adopt contract
guidelines, but I would
>>>>>>>>>>>> not recommend it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The members of the ooo-security list are
stated on our FAQ page [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I think that part is already covered.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Given what just happened with LO, we made improvements.
But I think that
>>>>>>>>> some member of ooo-security needs to be watching for
security related
>>>>>>>>> questions as they appear on ooo-dev and ooo-users. You
and Dennis are very
>>>>>>>>> vocal across the whole spectrum of AOOo issues. I think
that there needs to
>>>>>>>>> be someone we all know is on top of security and can
publicly contact.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of us. Me, you, or whoever should refrain
from answering such
>>>>>>>>> questions (or answer with deferment and deference). This
public facing
>>>>>>>>> person could generally speak for the group.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) Liaison with the TDF.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, someone who is already both a PPMC
member and a TDF member.
>>>>>>>>>>>> We have several.  "Half liaisons" (someone
who is a member of one
>>>>>>>>>>>> organization but not the other) don't work
quite as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Half or full is not really the issue. Diplomatic
and measured response
>>>>>>>>> that can both speak for the group and know when to defer
back to the podling
>>>>>>>>> is important. To me a non-TDF member might be better.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Press Liaison.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a podling we're a bit limited here, per
Podling guidelines [3], but
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is certainly some scope for doing good
work here, if someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> wants to volunteer.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Someone should be looking out at the real world
and letting us know
>>>>>>>>> what's being said about AOOo and then striving to correct
the record. This
>>>>>>>>> needs to be someone on the PPMC. The person is this role
would work with
>>>>>>>>> press@a.o. They would establish relationships, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it works that way.  I wish it did,
but it doesn't.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> What we've seen is this:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1) Reporters are either monitoring this list, or
more likely being
>>>>>>>>>> tipped off by someone, pointing them to threads where
there is juicy
>>>>>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2) The write an article, quoting participants on
this list. They are
>>>>>>>>>> not picky.  They'll quote members and non-members
alike, me, Dennis,
>>>>>>>>>> Simony, whoever.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 3) They then publish their article.  They never post
a note to the
>>>>>>>>>> list, send a note to Press@, ask who our press liaison
is.  They are
>>>>>>>>>> getting 50 bucks to write an article in 45 minutes,
and that is what
>>>>>>>>>> they do.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> That is how it works.  If we want to change that,
having a designated
>>>>>>>>>> person is not enough, unless that person actually
does the preemptive
>>>>>>>>>> outreach.  If we wait for negative stories to be
published we're too
>>>>>>>>>> late.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Well it looks like a tough job. You do bring up one main
benefit of a press
>>>>>>>>> liaison "preemptive outreach."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> We need someone explicitly building the relationships,
becoming someone
>>>>>>>>> that the press will know to ask when they want clarification
before they
>>>>>>>>> publish something negative or just plain wrong.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I will volunteer to tackle this in concert with press@a.o,
and Sally
>>>>>>>> Khudairi, VP Publicity, ASF.
>>>>>>>> Now where is that teflon suit?
>>>>>>>> /don
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> +1 for Don as press liaison.  I've seen him do good work in this
area
>>>>>>> in other organizations.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But shouldn't we raise these roles, the call for volunteers,
etc., in
>>>>>>> a new thread?  Right now it is buried in a PMC report thread,
which is
>>>>>>> not exactly a topic that attracts much attention.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (4) Brand Manager / Cat Herder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> You see those as the same thing?  We've had
a couple requests for
>>>>>>>>>>>> permission to use the OOo trademark and logo.
 We handled those
>>>>>>>>>>>> requests well, I thought.  I don't think
there is a volume of such
>>>>>>>>>>>> requests that would suggest we need a person
dedicated to that.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This is more about herding of wiki, BZ, blogs,
fora, and websites to
>>>>>>>>> have proper branding. Looking out for the OOo and AOOo
brand in the wild. It
>>>>>>>>> is cat herding because each of these exist in both the
legacy OOo site and
>>>>>>>>> in various stages of migration.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With people in these roles who are active
then perhaps the rest of us
>>>>>>>>> can defer immediate responses to questions in these areas
when they occur on
>>>>>>>>> ooo-dev. With slight formality we might be able to stop
the periodic and
>>>>>>>>> damaging flames of misunderstanding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Other areas where we could use some volunteer
leadership:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) wiki master
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) bugzilla master
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 7) web master
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> These are more obvious roles that are as much
internal to the project as
>>>>>>>>> external. Never-the-less these are roles.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> (8) User Forum sys admins - supplementing the
current proposal with
>>>>>>>>> individuals like perhaps Drew.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Rob Weir
<robweir@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other areas where we could use some volunteer
leadership:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> IP master?  Coordinating the re-licensing
process, looking at external
>>>>>>>>>>>> packages linked to, and being the go-to for
future contributions?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure -
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> (9) Legal Maven. Clearing Terms of Use with Apache
legal, checking
>>>>>>>>> NOTICE and LICENSE, requesting authors relicense source,
etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Don
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] http://www.apache.org/security/committers.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> [2] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ppmc-faqs.html
>>>>>>>>>>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/branding.html
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 


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