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From Dave Fisher <>
Subject Re: Staging OOo Site: Bugs and Improvements
Date Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:58:38 GMT

On Oct 31, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Dave Fisher <> wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>> Ignore the -1, it was just about processing happening when I was using them only
to clarify the kind of thing I wanted to report and have taken care of deliberatively, rather
than have them dumped on you in some odd way.  It was on me as much as anything, since I should
have known by now that the examples would be processed.
>>> Yes, I am subscribed to ooo-commits.  Unfortunately, the CWiki commits don't
come over as diffs but as complete text before and after.  So I rarely read them.  For me,
all they serve as is a reminder to go to the CWiki page and find out what really happened.
 I find ooo-issues much easier to handle.
>>> "Already known to be in progress" is the problem here.  I will follow Rob's comment
and use BZ.
>> -1. If there are a slew of BZ reports without people learning to fix it in the Apache
CMS then I will ignore. You REALLY can use the bookmarklet on - just like
the podling site.
> Of course, there are more people that can find issues than have the
> permissions or skills needed to fix them using the CMS.  I think we
> should be looking for a way that we can benefit from their eyeballs.

Yes. People who care have to step up. It is now to the point where anyone who is a committer
can use the Apache CMS to handle simple edits.

The rest of the people have to jump in when they see how they can help. The local build using
the Apache CMS is not hard.

> Maybe we're just not ready for that level of review yet?  Is that the idea?

You bet. And we never will be unless we start looking and discussing without picking on the
detail. Many hands have contributed html with varying levels of consistency. Each site has
its own detail to the wrapping.

> Maybe it would help if you said something like "The website is up and
> has many known issues in areas X,Y,Z.  Before reporting those I could
> use some help in finding problems in areas A, B and C and discussing
> on the list ways of resolving them".

It is not that predictive an environment. You might notice that people are stepping up for
some of the sites and those are the ones that I am standing up.

I wish it were and I wish I had the time to do what I am doing plus my job plus write clear
documentation. Of those three, the documentation will have to lag. Sorry.

For ten years I've managed a couple of Russian developers and I've learned that usually less
words is more effective, but will admit that too few can be a problem too.

Someone needs to start a Wiki page where we can register each website project and track its
state that would be the correct level. If no one else gets to it I'll look at it later this

Best Regards,

>> Repeating myself.
>> Before you go and put a bunch of little formatting issues from websites that are
already known to be a work in progress in BZ two things need to happen.
>> (1) Someone besides me has to take ownership on that web project. I am willfully
going to ignore BZ.
>> (2) We all need to agree on what the approach is for the website. And this is a discussion.
>> Please do not disregard the above request. I am saying that there are bugs and you
will make a lot of extra work if they go in BZ and require someone to check and close each
one when they will likely be found anyway as (1) and (2) are picked up.
>> If you don't like the way the website does something at this point is not a bug it
is a discussion. I want a discussion and not demands!
>> BZs when nothing is set just will turn this into a not fun JOB. It is too soon for
BZs on the website.
>>> The terms-of-use one is broader, but the short-term solution is simple.  I'll
raise that on its own thread.
>> +1.
>> If you know the appropriate language for the web, wiki, and forum then yes each is
its own related topic. Here I think you just need to let the correct people know. We are waiting
to do this work. It is expected.
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>> - Dennis
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dave Fisher []
>>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:40
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: Staging OOo Site: Bugs and Improvements
>>> Hi Dennis,
>>> Before you go and put a bunch of little formatting issues from websites that
are already known to be a work in progress in BZ two things need to happen.
>>> (1) Someone besides me has to take ownership on that web project.
>>> (2) We all need to agree on what the approach is for the website.
>>> I asked for a wiki because it is easier for me in doing the initial work. I know
it is a counter pattern.
>>> Are you subscribed to ooo-commits? CWiki is just as visible there as BZ.
>>> I don't know what you are -1 ing?
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>> On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>> +1
>>>> I agree that the PayPal and other specific donation pages on http:// *
properties must be removed.  Likewise the Team Office one.  It is already established that
these are inappropriate under Apache governance.  I believe it is appropriate to have a page
that indicates there are many ways to provide supporting donations, specifies where to donate
to ASF, and may list others with a disclaimer that the contributor should satisfy themselves
as to the purposes of other listed sites and that ASF has no liability whatsoever in providing
links to them.
>>>> With regard to uniqueness of the pages between the various NLs, I lean toward
that while also wanting the NL groups to be able to express their individuality.  Having them
be essentially similar in the main content, but translated into the NL, is valuable in many
respects. It allows a non-NL-fluent person to figure out what the buttons and menu items are
by knowing what they are on pages that are understood -- not unlike trouble-shooting an NL
install for someone who doesn't know that language.  Having bi-lingual information on the
pages can be useful too.)
>>>> If the pages are similar enough, having a flag-banner or other strip for
choosing between languages is also useful, reducing the amount of searching that has to be
done in an unfamiliar language.
>>>> - Dennis
>>>> -1
>>>> OK, back to the thread.  I gave examples and wanted a way to report more
in some systematic fashion so they could be handled systematically.  Instead, there is processing
in the e-mail.  I wanted to avoid that (and here I am, doing it also).  Wiki is not my favorite
choice, because nothing keeps my eye on it and I have to mess around subscribing to individual
pages and dealing with wikiText editing.  I think I'll try bugzilla, even though there may
be considerable discussion on some topics, such as the PayPal and Donation discussion here.
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: J├╝rgen Schmidt []
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 10:19
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: Re: Staging OOo Site: Bugs and Improvements
>>>> On 10/31/11 5:55 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 30, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>>>> 4. This page, for Downloads, linked from the ES home page, has a
PayPal button and solicits $25 donations for downloads:<>.
 The solicitations are for the "oooES" PayPal account.
>>>>> Yes, I've flagged that as well - Alexandro should be able to explain
oooES. I think it is in a similar category to Team OpenOffice. I've found a paypal button
in the Greek site to an individual for translation work. Not sure about others yet. I'll know
when we're complete. These were all sanctioned at some point and I think the PPMC will need
to decide policy in conversation with trademarks@a.o.
>>>> i think it's very confusing to have this individual donation places and
>>>> i would remove them all. Furthermore i would suggest that we really
>>>> rethink our portal "" in the near future. I don't see
>>>> the necessity of having too much different content on the localized
>>>> pages. A 1:1 translation of the English pages should be ok for all.
>>>> Maybe each regional page can have their own news feed to announce local
>>>> events but that's it. We should keep it simple.
>>>> All the community work and information specific to regional communities
>>>> should move into the wiki and forum from my point of view. Main
>>>> development work and communication around this is done in English anyway.
>>>> And i don't think that this is similar to Team because
>>>> Team was the only official instance that was allowed to
>>>> collect donations from the OOo sites. All others were not allowed as far
>>>> as i know. They were tolerated but not more. Don't ask me why, i have
>>>> never understood this.
>>>> well, that is my personal opinion
>>>> Juergen

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