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From Dave Fisher <>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
Date Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:22:14 GMT

On Oct 20, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

> On 10/20/2011 10:14 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> Rob,
>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
>> retired.
>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
>> experiment did.
>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>>  - Dennis
>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or the forwarding map
will be made available.
> The best approach for contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any of the other infrastructure
hosted on Kenai (including the hg & svn).
> The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we need to look at doing the cut-over.

Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other services that will go away
when the forums and mediawiki do?


> Andrew
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir []
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <>  wrote:
>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>>> list
>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>> could
>>> be considered.
>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>>>  - Dennis
>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>>> useful
>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>>> @
>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir []
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <>  wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>>> into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>>> owner"
>>>> of, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe to this list, you would send an email to:
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to, in English:
>>> -----------------
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> mailing list.
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>> or click here:
>>> -----------------
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>> -Rob

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