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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Subject RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
Date Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:29:36 GMT
Andrea,

Splendido!  Piacere! +1

That's wonderful.  Can you assist us in connecting with other Native Language 
List (NL-list) moderators and enlisting them in providing similar support for 
their communities of users?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@openoffice.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:11
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this

I find the plan well-thought and I agree it is vital to act before the
existing infrastructure is abandoned, but I propose to make some changes
and I volunteer to lead this alternative migration at least for the 12
mailing lists on the it.openoffice.org domain. See below for details.

> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

Perfect. Actually, I remember I already provided this information on a
wiki page with the "top lists" you created some weeks ago.

> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.

The fundamental difference is here: the N-L mailing lists (including the
Italian ones) mostly target end users. We shouldn't put any burden on
them or expect them to be able to follow processes and confirmation
e-mails in other languages.

And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not
of disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing
lists) shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old
OpenOffice.org is dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the
product our users will be talking about in the mailing lists is still
the "old" OpenOffice.org, and the fact that the new home is at Apache is
not a fundamental difference to them; they will continue using the
product and taking care, when the time comes, of localization and QA; we
would scare users and contributors away by describing an "old/dead"
OpenOffice.org.

I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
address will change, including all information about Apache but not
requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
into 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being
"project owner" of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers
to the 12 lists).

One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of
view, we are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a
migration. I read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to
help spammers this way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and
it would be a suicidal move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing
lists and leave the majority of users in a position where they can say
"OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point that even the peer-support mailing
lists have been shut down".

> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other 
> languages.
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the 
> lists.
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.

OK about this.

> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses
still work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed
by a silent closure of the old addresses.

Regards,
   Andrea.

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