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Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:55:06 -0400
From: Shane Curcuru <asf@shanecurcuru.org>
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To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
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On 9/6/2011 9:39 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Joe Schaefer<joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>  wrote:
>> It's called delegation Rob, and it's done all the
>> time within the ASF.  The PPMC can delegate ALL
>>
>> management/oversight aspects to whomever is on
>> the PPMC that is also involved with the forums.
>>
>> So long as 1 person on the PPMC is watching over
>> the activity, and anything noteworthy gets passed
>> along to the board via PPMC reports, it's a perfectly
>> humane way of conducting yourselves.
>>
>
> So we can delegate selection of approval of committers to a single
> PPMC member?  Really?

Er, no, and where did you come up with that idea?

There are way too many miscommunications happening here.  I don't see 
how you get to voting in new committers from someone on the PPMC having 
oversight of how the forums work.

The fundamental point is that the board, through it's PMCs (not PPMCs, 
by the way), has oversight over the content that our projects produce 
and present to the public.  This is important for a number of reasons, 
including legal (ensuring we have the right to publish the content, 
ensuring we or our users aren't exposed to excess legal risks in using 
the content), brand (people have certain expectations of Apache 
software), and community (ensuring that our communities know the base 
rules for behavior).

This does not in any way mean that everyone needs to be a committer nor 
on the (P)PMC!  Are the forums producing significant code or structured 
documentation that we intend to put in releases directly?  If no, then 
there's no real need to be a committer.

Yes, having a single community with a healthy and overall meritocracy is 
a best practice.  But some level of work outside of this - especially in 
the user support side - I could see working under the PMC, but not being 
committers.  I could see Admins/Moderators hopefully signing iCLAs in 
the future.

This is a different question than most Apache projects, both because the 
level of work in non-technical end-user support for OOo that's not in 
any other Apache project, but also because of the fundamental 
differences in how much of the end-user support work vs. in terms of 
traditional Apache user support.  It's not clear to me even now how much 
specific work from the forums does (and, more importantly could!) come 
back to the project itself.

But I certainly know it's getting hard to find a common ground without 
being a little nicer to each other.

- Shane


>
> -Rob
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Rob Weir<robweir@apache.org>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:27 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Joe Schaefer<joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>  wrote:
>>>> Up until a few days ago I thought we had one.
>>>> Move the forums over to the ASF, give the PPMC
>>>> and ASF members the full ability (upon request)
>>>> to oversee allcommunications within the forums,
>>>> and life goeson.  I see no need for the Volunteers
>>>> to join the PPMC or anything like that, just keep
>>>> doing whatever you're doing and keep the PPMC abreast
>>>> of anything report-worthy when they need to report
>>>> to the board.  If the Volunteers want to incorporate
>>>> some Apache-style voting processes into their ops,
>>>> go for it!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> And if I wanted to create a group called the "Calc developer
>>> volunteers", could we join the project, with the understanding the
>>> rest of the project would leave us alone?  We would vote in our own
>>> committers, etc,. independently of the normal PMC process.  We would
>>> conduct our business on restricted-access mailing lists, not visible
>>> to the public.  But on request we'd allow PMC members to join these
>>> lists.
>>>
>>> Ignore for a second the IP implications.  That is really a red
>>> herring.  The point is meritocracy, decision making and PMC oversight.
>>> Think of similar analogies with non-release aspects of the project,
>>> like web site design, documentation, wikis, etc.
>>>
>>> Where else does Apache have a meritocracy embedded in a project that
>>> does not commune with the PMC?  In an ideal world, where everything
>>> just worked, and there were never any disagreements or disputes, then
>>> this might work.  But in that world we wouldn't need a PMC or an ASF
>>> Board either.  In any case, we don't live in such a world.
>>>
>>> It is bizarre, but I hear people advocating for community
>>> fragmentation in the name of community unity.  Having two parallel
>>> meritocracies within the same project is fragmentation.  I don't see
>>> how we can call it anything else.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Rory O'Farrell<ofarrwrk@iol.ie>
>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:08 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 05:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>> Joe Schaefer<joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> So to answer your questions, yes it certainly could be done
>>>>>> within the Apache structure.  No it probably cannot be done
>>>>>> to host stuff here on behalf of some third party.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, that is helpful in clarifying options.
>>>>>
>>>>> So to be hosted on Apache one would need to find some mechanism whereby a forum would fit into Apache; by your earlier post you do not think there is such a mechanism. Might Apache be prepared to modify (by extension) their structures to accomodate these?  This becomes a problem for the legal draughtsmen, of course.  The old rule of £minimal change" ought apply.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not asking for a change, just exploring the possibility of one.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rory O'Farrell<ofarrwrk@iol.ie>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>