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From: "Daniel Shahaf" <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name>
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References: 
 <4E5FB6F0.2060504@ellisons.org.uk><010b01cc68d6$6ae0cff0$40a26fd0$@acm.org><4E5FD72A.4030202@ellisons.org.uk><013601cc68e1$b2f73ee0$18e5bca0$@acm.org><4E6000E3.2090101@ellisons.org.uk><121801cc68f5$9e07f6a0$da17e3e0$@16degrees.com.au>
 <CAP-ksogyxseGnaJVV=1Gbri_pBA8DWNddXKyayeLOCiqVCFO1A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:45:25 +0300

The problem isn't "Gavin needs to cool off".  The problem is "Terry and Inf=
ra need to find a way to work together without constantly stepping on each =
other's toes".

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:33 -0400, "Rob Weir" <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
> You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few.
> With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong
> working habits.  This is probably the largest migration effort Apache
> has ever done.  It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective,
> since it is a technical, procedural and social change.  We obviously
> really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks.   Can we
> find a way to cool off rather than escalate?  Tomorrow is another day.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rob
>=20
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <gavin@16degrees.com.au> w=
rote:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM
> >> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> >> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> >>
> >> Dennis,
> >>
> >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No. =C2=A0As to the long o=
ne: ...
> >>
> >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for so=
und
> >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequence=
s for
> >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job. =C2=A0=
Now
> >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have
> >> gone.
> >>
> >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was alrea=
dy
> >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I w=
as
> >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the buildi=
ng".
> >>
> >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the
> >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mecha=
nisms
> >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track=
 record
> >> to take over these systems. =C2=A0Our main problem is that this list c=
urrently
> >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could
> >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew. =C2=
=A0However
> >> we are all already working to our limits. =C2=A0Maybe we just need a c=
loning
> >> machine :(
> >
> > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and h=
elp
> > should the need arise.
> >
> >>
> >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I f=
eel that
> >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place. =C2=A0My work is time con=
suming
> >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo develop=
er,
> >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin. =C2=A0In some ways you=
 need to be
> >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expe=
rtise. =C2=A0I
> >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
> >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine. =C2=A0Again =
this only my
> >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
> >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by =
a few
> >> individuals. =C2=A0It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to do=
mains of
> >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more
> >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission. =C2=A0In short I am b=
eing asked
> >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
> >> environment.
> >
> > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do ze=
ro hours
> > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, =
not what
> > anybody tells you to do.
> >
> > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional?
> >
> > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stu=
ff, but you
> > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around h=
ere. We have
> > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now =
it is time
> > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help =
you do this but
> > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one.
> >
> > =C2=A0> If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be
> >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who s=
pent 32
> >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technica=
l tier
> >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.
> >
> > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only pers=
on here doing
> > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or=
 your countless
> > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am=
 getting tired
> > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow=
 down and do
> > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are=
 not stupid, we know
> > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard=
 to do that to me
> > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will=
 please us all.
> >
> > Gav...
> >
> >>
> >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the proje=
ct,
> >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still=
 here in 3
> >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort i=
t out.
> >>
> >> Regards Terry
> >>
> >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >> > Um, so your answer is no?
> >> >
> >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on th=
e live
> >> openoffice.org site?
> >> >
> >> > Any suggestions?
> >> >
> >> > =C2=A0 - Dennis
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> >> > Cc:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
> >> >
> >> > Dennis,
> >> >
> >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
> >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
> >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
> >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
> >> >
> >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue =
of
> >> > the mail forwarder. =C2=A0It's more an application issue if we get c=
ontrol
> >> > of the application support. =C2=A0I have exactly the same issues wit=
h my
> >> > mail responder that is built into the forums.
> >> >
> >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
> >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
> >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org =C2=A0(apparently at
> >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>).
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block
> >> a
> >> >> bad echo?
> >> >>
> >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three
> >> >> notices fromservice-clients@sc.sfr.fr. Then we need to find the
> >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding si=
te
> >> >> and disable those.
> >> >>
> >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
> >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain.
> >> >>
> >> >> - Dennis
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
> >> >> To:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a
> >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If
> >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make
> >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production
> >> >> service (not
> >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I
> >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main
> >> >> closed forums.
> >> >>
> >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
> >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards
> >> >> Terr
> >
> >
>=20