From ooo-dev-return-5145-apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Tue Sep 6 09:59:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@minotaur.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB7F572F0 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 35999 invoked by uid 500); 6 Sep 2011 09:59:26 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-ooo-dev-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 35802 invoked by uid 500); 6 Sep 2011 09:59:12 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ooo-dev-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 35782 invoked by uid 99); 6 Sep 2011 09:59:10 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:59:10 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FROM,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS,T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: domain of grobmeier@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.210.175] (HELO mail-iy0-f175.google.com) (209.85.210.175) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:59:03 +0000 Received: by iagz35 with SMTP id z35so7439867iag.6 for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 02:58:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mJg+OIvIvmHBJOJHMeLJZsmM7aGIlEhs5kZjtjhgKgM=; b=YbWoWObdsh0FM9R8pPcVlLI0lTUe2z7fZaTot7TmM1RS+fhiDl3gHYh/8nZOkyhAqn pDDXRkWlqkMbtGG2VnY1Qm3xCtvvlcHHbe/iqEhzTZHXNmtpl9mcGTr5Eb7xrVfnYSrP je5/vpiZoa3Fa8qW3psM0nGggztZDIFTQXNZM= Received: by 10.42.196.3 with SMTP id ee3mr4284884icb.168.1315303122081; Tue, 06 Sep 2011 02:58:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.177.197 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Sep 2011 02:58:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E654A51.90508@laposte.net> References: <4E654A51.90508@laposte.net> From: Christian Grobmeier Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 11:58:22 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache OpenOffice.org project To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org > We are a group of users who believes in OOo. > We like to help other users through forums (some like ML, we prefer forum= , > that's life). This all and then tons of work you already have done (up to 18.000 posts!!) should make you eligible as an ASF committer. Cheers > The question of the forum in the Oracle donation was not clear so we HAD = to > approach ASF to check what would be the future. As you (Rob) were the mos= t > "visible" on the web, you've been approached. > All Volunteers are have not applied to the committer role because you nev= er > engaged with us directly on the forum. Most of the Volunteers don't care > about how ASF works. They like to help other users and they just do that. > > The forum has been created because of the lack of administration of the > initial forum (oooforum which is still a great place for code snippets). > Nobody but the owner had any power to improve the forum (spam is still a > plague over there it seems) and the owner is nowhere to be found. The for= um > has been settled by users and has given users the power to improve it > through the Volunteer status (a kind of meritocracy if you want). It's > amazing how you ask us to trust you but you can't trust a group of users > just wanting to help... But you're 1 vote, that's all. I hope the list wi= ll > get the picture. > > As for your proposal, here are my votes below, in your mail. > > If you want another committer, then take this mail as a request to be one= . > > [Edit] Sent from the registered mail address. > I would add: please remember that you're dealing with a mass end-user > oriented project! Not something you were used to handle I think. The foru= ms > as long as the OOo ML are not sub-parts of the community, they are the > community. And most of the users don't care about the governance of the > project as long as the product is fine for them. > > Hagar > OOo User Community EN co-admin & moderator > NB: previously known as Hagar de l'Est > > > Le dim. 04 sept. 2011 16:36:27 CEST, Rob Weir a =C3= =A9crit : >> >> 1) The Terms of Use and other policy documents used by the Forum >> should be reviewed and approved by the PPMC, and for the former, also >> by Apache legal. > > +1 > >> 2) We need to develop a privacy policy for the Forums, also to be >> reviewed by the PPMC and Apache legal > > -1. Doesn't it come from the private forum issue? There is no issue. You'= ve > your private list, we have a private section. You want access to it? No > problem. > We handle governance issue in private? OK, we can change that. It was so > just to avoid all the lengthy discussions with users who just take the fo= rum > as a customer service and can't help complaining. > >> 3) Changes to Forum policies, TOU and privacy policy would require a >> proposal on ooo-dev, and discussion and consensus reached there. =C2=A0I= t >> is possible that preliminary public discussions could occur in other >> places first, such as on the Forums themselves. =C2=A0But the project's >> official discussions and decisions are made on ooo-dev. =C2=A0 =C2=A0In = other >> words, if it didn't happen on the project's main list (ooo-dev), it >> didn't happen. > > +1. > >> 4) We need the Forum website to conform to Apache branding >> requirements, including the podling-specific requirements > > +1. > >> =3D=3DApproval of Forum roles=3D=3D >> >> My understanding is that forums have essentially three roles: >> >> a) Users >> b) Moderators, who delete, edit and move all posts, ban users, etc. >> c) Admins who can also create new forums and assign moderator rights >> >> 5) Users require no special treatment. =C2=A0They are like subscribers t= o a >> users list. > > +1. > >> 6) Being listed as an "admin" or "moderator" on a public-facing Apache >> website suggests endorsement by the project, and aside from any >> enhanced Forum capabilities enhances your ability to keep order on the >> Forums. =C2=A0In other words, it is the star that makes the sheriff, not >> the gun. =C2=A0But this endorsement, to be meaningful, should be made >> authentic. =C2=A0 So Admins and Moderators should be approved by the PPM= C. >> This kind of routine approval is given all the time for those who want >> to be list moderators. =C2=A0I see no reason why we cannot, initially at >> least, simply receive a list of current volunteers to ooo-private and >> approve them all. > > -1. Same as Zoltan. Except if admins and moderators are PPMC themselves. > They are the ones who monitor the forum, know the users by reading their > posts and how they react. > >> 7) Future grants of admin/moderator rights would require a proposal to >> ooo-dev seeking lazy consensus. =C2=A0Such a proposal could originate fr= om >> a forum volunteer or could originate from anyone on ooo-dev. This is >> no different than someone asking to be a moderator for a mailing list. > > -1. Same as above. > >> 8) Any project committer, on request, will be made a forum admin or >> moderator. =C2=A0This is how it works with every other project resource = -- >> mailing lists, source code, website, etc. =C2=A0 Committers have rights = to >> pretty much everything on the project. =C2=A0We trust our committers. We >> don't segregate the project into exclusive zones of ownership. > > +1. > >> =3D=3DTransparency=3D=3D >> >> 9) We need all private forum discussions to be echoed to a log or >> mailing list where PPMC and Apache Members can view them. =C2=A0One way = of >> doing this is to echo posts to ooo-private. =C2=A0Another way is to >> periodically commit logs to the PPMC's private directory. =C2=A0There ma= y >> be other ways as well. > > +1. There are already examples and solutions discussed in the forum (had = you > registered...) > >> 10) The use of private forums must be used for only discussions of >> specific moderation cases. =C2=A0It must not be used for discussion of >> routine board operations. > > +1. What if users complain about how the governance is made? Ask them to = be > a committer? As it would request him to do something, it's like to say > sorry, you can see but you can't touch. Not sure it's worth showing the c= ake > then. But well, let's try it if you want. > >> 11) One admin or moderator from each of the 10 language-specific >> boards should be signed up on the ooo-dev list and ooo-users list. >> This could also be done by requiring that Forum Admins also be >> Committers, but that is not something we are starting with, though it >> could be an eventual goal. > > +1. > >> 12) We should also encourage existing committers to participate >> directly in answering questions on the support forum. =C2=A0It is valuab= le >> to see how ordinary users use the product and the difficulties they >> encounter. =C2=A0It puts our coding decisions in perspective. =C2=A0This= is a >> two-way street. =C2=A0It is not just to encourage support volunteers to = be >> more aware of other parts of the project, but also to make other parts >> of the project more involved with support, or at least more aware. >> We're all on the same project. =C2=A0Our actions and decisions impact ea= ch >> other. > > +1. Will monitor this with great pleasure. > >> >> 13) The PPMC should give serious consideration to forum >> admins/moderators who help with the above tasks, for approval as >> Committers and PPMC members. =C2=A0 It is important that the PPMC always= be >> looking out for merit that should be recognized. =C2=A0It does not matte= r >> that the forum volunteers did not previously participate in overall >> discussions of the project's direction. =C2=A0That was then, this is now= . >> We will all benefit from having support volunteers as part of the >> decision making process, including the important decision of approving >> a release. > > Politics. > --=20 http://www.grobmeier.de