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From Tony Stevenson <pct...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:40:52 GMT

On 1 Sep 2011, at 23:02, Terry Ellison wrote:

> Dennis,
> 
> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: ...
> 
> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound commercial
reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences for a lot of people who worked
on OOo and who no longer have a job.  Now we've now got some services running unmanned, because
the people have gone.
> 
> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already providing expert
support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was able to step in with his active cooperation
before he "left the building".
> 
> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the Apache project
wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms to grant project members who
have the right technical skills and track record to take over these systems.  Our main problem
is that this list currently seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who
could potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew.  However we are all
already working to our limits.  Maybe we just need a cloning machine :(
> 

All we would need is some documentation and then infra can help out with this as needed. 

> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel that I am caught
between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming and the skills are different to
the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer, but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.
 In some ways you need to be an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate
this expertise.  I am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this only my personal experience,
but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers and this seems to be an endemic culture,
albeit strongly advocated by a few individuals.

I wouldn't disagree with you, but I certainly wouldn't outright agree with you.

>  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains of expertise outside its comfort
area -- even though these may be more relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In
short I am being asked to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
environment.  If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be seriously thinking
about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent 32 years working with the same company
working to get to its top technical tier -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.

Oh my god.  I am starting to get bored with your relentless tirades about how you are working
so hard, and long hours.  Join the frickin' club, you are by no means the only one who does
this, and you certainly won't be the last.  This is after all a volunteer organisation.  

In other words get off your high horse.  Calm down, and please try to adjust to our way of
working.  Thus far we have essentially done what ever you have asked of us, regardless of
how daft they sounded to us. Please don't keep rolling out how you have spent your working
life, getting to the top of the pile.  It's hardly a glowing reference, I mean EDS is hardly
well known for it's quality of service.  But this is my personal opinion.  

You know what, all you have managed to achieve in the past few weeks is get my back up with
your petulant comments and side swipes at the infra team in general.  Several of us how gone
out of our way to provide you with answers to questions you had.  I even explained something
to you at great pain in IRC, only for you to ignore me.  You basically lost me there. 

Why does everything seem to have to be   molehill -> mountain with you?  If you can't take
criticism or feedback, the infra group will feel like an over-bearing place to be, but we
actually have the best of intentions.  

So, when you are ready to listen to what advice and feedback we have given you, and you stop
throwing your tantrums - I for one would be willing to welcome you back so we can all move
on and see some results.


> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project, don't have
the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still here in 3 months and this is still
an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it out.
> 
> Regards Terry
> 
> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> Um, so your answer is no?
>> 
>> You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the live openoffice.org
site?
>> 
>> Any suggestions?
>> 
>>  - Dennis
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04
>> To:dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> Cc:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>> 
>> Dennis,
>> 
>> As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
>> between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
>> Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
>> anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
>> 
>> However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue of
>> the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control of
>> the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with my mail
>> responder that is built into the forums.
>> 
>>> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
>>> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
>>> http://fr.openoffice.org  (apparently at
>>> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>).
>>> 
>>> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block a
>>> bad echo?
>>> 
>>> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates three
>>> notices fromservice-clients@sc.sfr.fr. Then we need to find the
>>> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding site
>>> and disable those.
>>> 
>>> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
>>> these portions of the openoffice.org domain.
>>> 
>>> - Dennis
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
>>> To:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
>>> 
>>> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have a
>>> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site. If any
>>> committers would like to have access to these, then just make sure that
>>> they've got an active account on the current production service (not
>>> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access. I
>>> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main closed
>>> forums.
>>> 
>>> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
>>> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Terr
> 


Tony

---------------------------------------
Tony Stevenson

tony@pc-tony.com // pctony@apache.org
tony@caret.cam.ac.uk

http://blog.pc-tony.com

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