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From Christian Grobmeier <>
Subject Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:58:22 GMT
> We are a group of users who believes in OOo.
> We like to help other users through forums (some like ML, we prefer forum,
> that's life).

This all and then tons of work you already have done (up to 18.000
posts!!) should make you eligible as an ASF committer.


> The question of the forum in the Oracle donation was not clear so we HAD to
> approach ASF to check what would be the future. As you (Rob) were the most
> "visible" on the web, you've been approached.
> All Volunteers are have not applied to the committer role because you never
> engaged with us directly on the forum. Most of the Volunteers don't care
> about how ASF works. They like to help other users and they just do that.
> The forum has been created because of the lack of administration of the
> initial forum (oooforum which is still a great place for code snippets).
> Nobody but the owner had any power to improve the forum (spam is still a
> plague over there it seems) and the owner is nowhere to be found. The forum
> has been settled by users and has given users the power to improve it
> through the Volunteer status (a kind of meritocracy if you want). It's
> amazing how you ask us to trust you but you can't trust a group of users
> just wanting to help... But you're 1 vote, that's all. I hope the list will
> get the picture.
> As for your proposal, here are my votes below, in your mail.
> If you want another committer, then take this mail as a request to be one.
> [Edit] Sent from the registered mail address.
> I would add: please remember that you're dealing with a mass end-user
> oriented project! Not something you were used to handle I think. The forums
> as long as the OOo ML are not sub-parts of the community, they are the
> community. And most of the users don't care about the governance of the
> project as long as the product is fine for them.
> Hagar
> OOo User Community EN co-admin & moderator
> NB: previously known as Hagar de l'Est
> Le dim. 04 sept. 2011 16:36:27 CEST, Rob Weir <> a écrit :
>> 1) The Terms of Use and other policy documents used by the Forum
>> should be reviewed and approved by the PPMC, and for the former, also
>> by Apache legal.
> +1
>> 2) We need to develop a privacy policy for the Forums, also to be
>> reviewed by the PPMC and Apache legal
> -1. Doesn't it come from the private forum issue? There is no issue. You've
> your private list, we have a private section. You want access to it? No
> problem.
> We handle governance issue in private? OK, we can change that. It was so
> just to avoid all the lengthy discussions with users who just take the forum
> as a customer service and can't help complaining.
>> 3) Changes to Forum policies, TOU and privacy policy would require a
>> proposal on ooo-dev, and discussion and consensus reached there.  It
>> is possible that preliminary public discussions could occur in other
>> places first, such as on the Forums themselves.  But the project's
>> official discussions and decisions are made on ooo-dev.    In other
>> words, if it didn't happen on the project's main list (ooo-dev), it
>> didn't happen.
> +1.
>> 4) We need the Forum website to conform to Apache branding
>> requirements, including the podling-specific requirements
> +1.
>> ==Approval of Forum roles==
>> My understanding is that forums have essentially three roles:
>> a) Users
>> b) Moderators, who delete, edit and move all posts, ban users, etc.
>> c) Admins who can also create new forums and assign moderator rights
>> 5) Users require no special treatment.  They are like subscribers to a
>> users list.
> +1.
>> 6) Being listed as an "admin" or "moderator" on a public-facing Apache
>> website suggests endorsement by the project, and aside from any
>> enhanced Forum capabilities enhances your ability to keep order on the
>> Forums.  In other words, it is the star that makes the sheriff, not
>> the gun.  But this endorsement, to be meaningful, should be made
>> authentic.   So Admins and Moderators should be approved by the PPMC.
>> This kind of routine approval is given all the time for those who want
>> to be list moderators.  I see no reason why we cannot, initially at
>> least, simply receive a list of current volunteers to ooo-private and
>> approve them all.
> -1. Same as Zoltan. Except if admins and moderators are PPMC themselves.
> They are the ones who monitor the forum, know the users by reading their
> posts and how they react.
>> 7) Future grants of admin/moderator rights would require a proposal to
>> ooo-dev seeking lazy consensus.  Such a proposal could originate from
>> a forum volunteer or could originate from anyone on ooo-dev. This is
>> no different than someone asking to be a moderator for a mailing list.
> -1. Same as above.
>> 8) Any project committer, on request, will be made a forum admin or
>> moderator.  This is how it works with every other project resource --
>> mailing lists, source code, website, etc.   Committers have rights to
>> pretty much everything on the project.  We trust our committers. We
>> don't segregate the project into exclusive zones of ownership.
> +1.
>> ==Transparency==
>> 9) We need all private forum discussions to be echoed to a log or
>> mailing list where PPMC and Apache Members can view them.  One way of
>> doing this is to echo posts to ooo-private.  Another way is to
>> periodically commit logs to the PPMC's private directory.  There may
>> be other ways as well.
> +1. There are already examples and solutions discussed in the forum (had you
> registered...)
>> 10) The use of private forums must be used for only discussions of
>> specific moderation cases.  It must not be used for discussion of
>> routine board operations.
> +1. What if users complain about how the governance is made? Ask them to be
> a committer? As it would request him to do something, it's like to say
> sorry, you can see but you can't touch. Not sure it's worth showing the cake
> then. But well, let's try it if you want.
>> 11) One admin or moderator from each of the 10 language-specific
>> boards should be signed up on the ooo-dev list and ooo-users list.
>> This could also be done by requiring that Forum Admins also be
>> Committers, but that is not something we are starting with, though it
>> could be an eventual goal.
> +1.
>> 12) We should also encourage existing committers to participate
>> directly in answering questions on the support forum.  It is valuable
>> to see how ordinary users use the product and the difficulties they
>> encounter.  It puts our coding decisions in perspective.  This is a
>> two-way street.  It is not just to encourage support volunteers to be
>> more aware of other parts of the project, but also to make other parts
>> of the project more involved with support, or at least more aware.
>> We're all on the same project.  Our actions and decisions impact each
>> other.
> +1. Will monitor this with great pleasure.
>> 13) The PPMC should give serious consideration to forum
>> admins/moderators who help with the above tasks, for approval as
>> Committers and PPMC members.   It is important that the PPMC always be
>> looking out for merit that should be recognized.  It does not matter
>> that the forum volunteers did not previously participate in overall
>> discussions of the project's direction.  That was then, this is now.
>> We will all benefit from having support volunteers as part of the
>> decision making process, including the important decision of approving
>> a release.
> Politics.


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