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From Christian Grobmeier <>
Subject Who else can do it? (was: Fwd: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache project)
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 09:45:52 GMT
So, what now?

I consider the ooo-forums a very important part of this project. Who
else is able to help, when Terry is gone?

This was a very sad thing to happen. And honestly, I cannot understand
the way some stuff was discussed in this matter. I have learned that
the goals of both parties are not so far from each other. Just the way
of the discussion has made every so worse. I have actually subscribed
to the message board and found a group of helpful, open minded people,
who just where overwhelmed by the tons of sudden changes. It is just 2
minutes to subscribe to such a forum and I am wondering why the people
discussing here have not done so and looked about what they speak. A
little more respect to the workers of the forum would have done very
well. They work as hard as any other part of the project!

Anyway, I can understand Terry has resigned. Looking forward - what
can we do now? Who else has knowledge on this boards technically?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Terry Ellison <>
Date: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated
into the Apache project
Cc: Shane Curcuru <>,

I think that there was perhaps a subtle difference in the basis of
Robs and my comments here.  One of the PPMC members said to me in a
side-email Rob was doing this trolling as a deliberate tactic to
generate an antagonistic response.  I can only plea in mitigation that
I meant what I said.  It came from my heart.  I wanted this service
that I have help to create to continue and to be healthy.

However this agenda is not about tolerance; it's not about working
together.  It's about total control.

Issues like necessary openness, conformance with Apache legal
requirements, Apache branding are something that forum members
wouldn't have a problem with, but what Rob's proposal also means is
that the PPMC

  * can appoint moderators administrators who don't have any track
    record on the forums,
  * has absolute power of veto over the same
  * can abolish the tier of volunteers which is core to our working
  * abolishes the ability of the forum members to hold internal
    discussions in-camera (which would still be accessible to Apache
    official audit)

And so it goes on.  Hence whoever controls the PPMC also controls the
forums absolutely, and all we know who sees himself in this role.

Earlier tonight, I sat with my calendar trying to work out how the
hell I was going to fit in all this work.  I have 14 days before my
wife's imposed drop dead date -- she's booked the flights.  We've got
5 days away seeing my sister-in-law and helping support her in family
tragedy.  I'll got to spend 3 days visiting my parents and give my
siblings a break in helping to support an 89 year-old with dementia
and her 95 year-old husband who is her full-time carer.  I've got to
visit my daughter who has just set up home with her partner.  I have
some jobs to do on the house,... I've wasted two days on Apache DLs
because if I didn't the relationships between the forums and the
project could fall apart.
And now I've got to finish the packaging, documentation and migration
or two systems to a standard that my infrastructure colleague seem to
require but seems to exceed the level attained on many if not most of
the current systems.

I got flamed a few days ago, so I decided to disengage but do the
honourable thing and finish all the work that was expected of me
before doing so.  Now all this shit.   I got to sleep last night with
the aid of alcohol and work up less than 5 hours later.  Again.   My
waking thoughts were.

  * Why the hell should I do this?
  * Why does this "little puffer fish" (or tetraodontida as one of the
    Mentors helpfully pointed out) have to take this shit?
  * Why should I go through this personal heart-ache?

Creating community projects is about creating communities; it's about
treating each other with respect; it's about toleration -- albeit
within some broad policy / legal framework; it's about creating
something that we can all be proud off.  It is not about power and
control.  It is not about allowing, even encouraging, individuals to
walk roughshod over everyone else to do so.

So my answer is that I don't need to do this.

Hence this email is my last involvement in Apache and the Forums.  No
more work.  Not more listening to attacks.  No more listening to
support, because it just sucks my back in.  There's a finished forum
instance -- a part from backup and management automation.  There's a
v1.15.5 wiki but it still has PHP5.3 - V1.15 incompatibilities in it.
I've got both systems almost finished on my VMs, but its time to
"savestate" them.  Between Drew and Andrew Rist you might be able to
get access to the live systems to copy across the final live
snapshots.  (Drew, could you also post this to the forums, if Hagar
doesn't move it from the Admin Mailbox.)

Five last words:
Goodbye and good luck, Terry

On 05/09/11 18:15, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Geez, folks, take a break; the heat in this thread is not helpful.
> Then come back and work on specific issues in a more productive manner, without all the
pomp and fluffery.
> Personally, I'd like to see more engagement and especially *education* flowing in *both*
directions[1] - along with an expectation that this is a process that will take some time.
> Both time in the technical sense, but also time in the community sense.  There are a
lot of individuals here with a long history of contributions.  It takes education and time
first to ensure that everyone is actually aware of the basics before you can really have a
cogent discussion.
> - Shane <hat type="mentor"/>
> [1] That means several PPMC members actually engaging in the admin forums with the long-time
contributors there, as well as more forum people introducing themselves on this list.
> Preferably in a friendly manner.


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