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From Christian Grobmeier <grobme...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
Date Fri, 02 Sep 2011 13:37:11 GMT
>> i just wanted to outline that a forum is already extraordinary for
>> support questions. Using message boards for support questions but not
>> using it to ban users from the same board sounds strange.
>>
> Banning a user is just pressing a button.  The technology does not
> require a discussion.  Same as mailing lists.  A list moderator can
> kick out a user without having a discussion.

Of course banning a user is clicking a button, but I didn't mean that
we need to discuss HOW to click that button. The discussion is around
IF.

> However, our process may
> require more deliberation.  So it is then a question of:
>
> 1) Where does this deliberation occur?
> 2) And does it require confidential treatment?
>
> We have several places where abusive behavior could happen, for example:
>
> 1) On mailing lists
> 2) On the community wiki
> 3) On the support forums
> 4) On the IRC channel
>
> Do we really want a proliferation of private venue for discussing user
> behavior?  A different one for each technology?

Do you really want to discuss a users behavior in public?
Wow, I really don't want to do that. I strongly believe that only a
few people would discuss another guys behavior in public.

>From the list above IRC channel is not sufficient, because you cannot
refer to something.
Wiki - if a user trolls a forum, he will probably terrorize the wiki
when his name occurs.

>> For the quote I used I would like to refer you to this excellent slides:
>> http://bit.ly/rkUbSM
>>
>> Anyway: all projects decisions should happen on list and not on Jabber
>> or on a message board.
>> I am doubting the banning of a user is a "real" project decision.
>
> When Drew described the use of one of the private support forums he wrote:
>
> "Rounding out this group of boards is the actual moderator board and that
> is where these peer reviews and discussion on specific posts by named
> users takes place. Although anyone can bring up whatever topic they want
> on that board."
>
> So it is not just banning users.  It sounds rather open-ended,

Thanks for quoting. I think (and I wrote that already) only moderation
related topics can/should be discussed in the moderation area.

> I'm sure that you've observed, as I have, that new podlings tend to
> over-user their private lists, that without regular reminders and
> correction from Mentors, there is a tendency to discuss things in
> private, not because it is necessary, not because it is confidential,
> but merely to avoid controversy, to avoid public viewing of project
> disagreements. Mentors and others try to correct this, because they
> know that it is important for projects to work transparently.

I have not made the experience. All the podlings I was in touch with
have made it pretty prober from the beginning. I agree it is important
to work transparent but there are some topics  which cause only grief
and pain when discussed in public. I even know projects who discuss
committer nominations & votes in private - and thats ok.

I also think that the ooo podling is different to all other podlings.
Transparency is key, I do not doubt this. But discussing someone else
in public can only lead to anger.

> Remember also that the forum moderators, for the most part, are not
> PPMC members.  They have not worked on the private list, nor have they
> received the constant reminders that we need to operate transparently.
>  They are like the PPMC was on our first day.

Question: is there not a single PPMC member on the moderation queue of
the forum?
If there are PPMC members on the forum, then it is pretty fine - they
can oversee the topics and bring them to public. If not than you have
lots of trusted individuals - committers - who should be able to do
the same.

Again, what actually are the use cases for this private moderation
forum? At the moment I have only:
- deleting spam posts
- banning users

What else?

I believe forum moderators can make sure that nothing else is discussed there.


>> On your example, if you are paying developers for proprietary code or
>> sell CDs outside the ASF and donate the money - why not? You should
>> just respect the branding requirements and do it on your own.
>>
>
> Irrelevant, since the support forums will soon be part of the project,

You brought up this rhetoric question - I thought I need to answer it.

> running on Apache infrastructure, under PPMC oversight., They are not
> independent.  The way in which users are treated will reflect on the
> project and on Apache overall.  The support forums are part of the
> "public face" of the project.  We should be ensuring that this public
> face reflects project and Apache values, including transparency.

+1
I think transparency is given, even when spam posts and troll users
are discussed in private on the message board.

> I'm not comfortable saying that non-PPMC members will be having
> private discussions about our users, in 30 different private forums,
> and deciding among themselves what users will be banned or not, all
> without PPMC oversight.

Aha, thats another point! Now you are saying that PPMC must have the
chance to agree with a lazy consens on a ban.

> In other words, how do we ensure that the support forums reflect
> Apache and project values if the  moderation occurs in private, by
> non-PPMC members, not appointed by the PPMC, without PPMC oversight?

What, if a the click on the "ban" button does send an email to the
private@ mailinglist?
As I heard it is the phpBB board which is used, so only a online is
necessary for that.
It would also conform to "commit then review"guidelines. ;-)
It would be good, if the click on the ban button needs a ban comment -
to my knowledge this comment is already implemented in phpBB. The
comment point to a discussion thread in which the moderators have
discussed their action. Any PPMC can then have an oversight on this.

Of course, all moderation actions allowed for that board need a
similar functionality.

In addition, I think it is possible to send "new topics" in a
moderation board to the private list. Then the PPMC is even aware of
newly starting discussions and can follow if they want.

What do you think about that?

Cheers
Christian

>
> -Rob
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

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