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From Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
Date Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:51:51 GMT
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> The problem isn't "Gavin needs to cool off".  The problem is "Terry and Infra need to
find a way to work together without constantly stepping on each other's toes".
>

Fnding this "way to work together" will be easier if we all step back
and cool off.  Escalating insults has a way of reaching a point of no
return.  We should try to avoid that.  I'm not pointing fingers at
anyone.

-Rob

> On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:33 -0400, "Rob Weir" <robweir@apache.org> wrote:
>> You two are some of the smartest admins I know, and I've known a few.
>> With mastery obviously comes strong opinions and equally strong
>> working habits.  This is probably the largest migration effort Apache
>> has ever done.  It is certainly a huge effort from OOo's perspective,
>> since it is a technical, procedural and social change.  We obviously
>> really need both of your help in the coming days and weeks.   Can we
>> find a way to cool off rather than escalate?  Tomorrow is another day.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Gavin McDonald <gavin@16degrees.com.au> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>> >> Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 8:02 AM
>> >> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> >> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> >> Subject: Re: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>> >>
>> >> Dennis,
>> >>
>> >> The short answer is IMHO: that's correct -- No.  As to the long one: ...
>> >>
>> >> Oracle stopped its major funding of OOo as a mainstream product for sound
>> >> commercial reasons -- though this has resulted in personal consequences
for
>> >> a lot of people who worked on OOo and who no longer have a job.  Now
>> >> we've now got some services running unmanned, because the people have
>> >> gone.
>> >>
>> >> We were lucky as far as the OOo wiki was concerned in that I was already
>> >> providing expert support to the Oracle guy who ran the system, and I was
>> >> able to step in with his active cooperation before he "left the building".
>> >>
>> >> I believe that Oracle that wants to ensure a "bumpless" transfer to the
>> >> Apache project wherever possible, and it will find the necessary mechanisms
>> >> to grant project members who have the right technical skills and track record
>> >> to take over these systems.  Our main problem is that this list currently
>> >> seems to contains one name -- mine, though there are others who could
>> >> potentially step into this gap: for example Raphael, Kay and Drew.  However
>> >> we are all already working to our limits.  Maybe we just need a cloning
>> >> machine :(
>> >
>> > Once we have documentation in place, any infra person can jump in and help
>> > should the need arise.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Quite honestly -- and I can only speak personally -- at the moment I feel
that
>> >> I am caught between a rock and a hard place.  My work is time consuming
>> >> and the skills are different to the mainstream C++ trained OOo developer,
>> >> but they are also different to a pure sysAdmin.  In some ways you need
to be
>> >> an expert in *both* these worlds and to be able to integrate this expertise.
 I
>> >> am not talking about enthusiastic newbie volunteers; I am talking about
>> >> hacks who have done this so many times that it's routine.  Again this only
my
>> >> personal experience, but I feel that Apache is unwelcoming to newcomers
>> >> and this seems to be an endemic culture, albeit strongly advocated by a
few
>> >> individuals.  It is intolerant and often outrightly hostile to domains
of
>> >> expertise outside its comfort area -- even though these may be more
>> >> relevant to the work and Apache's wider mission.  In short I am being asked
>> >> to work long hours on technically demanding tasks in a dysfunctional
>> >> environment.
>> >
>> > Nobody is asking you to so anything, you are a volunteer, you can do zero hours
>> > if it pleases you, Your hours are governed by what you want to put in, not what
>> > anybody tells you to do.
>> >
>> > Please explain what you mean by dysfunctional?
>> >
>> > FWIW I've been bending over backwards trying to help you with infra stuff, but
you
>> > are a stubborn old git who will not listen to how we do things around here.
We have
>> > accommodated just about every need, every weird way you do things, now it is
time
>> > for you to listen to us and fit in with us. I've been prepared to help you do
this but
>> > then you just go and piss me off with outlandish emails like this one.
>> >
>> >  > If I was being paid to do what I am doing now, then I would be
>> >> seriously thinking about changing jobs -- and this is from a guy who spent
32
>> >> years working with the same company working to get to its top technical
tier
>> >> -- and also one who is now doing this work pro-bono.
>> >
>> > This is a volunteer organisation, guess what, you are not the only person here
doing
>> > work for nothing. Please do not yet again spout off your credentials or your
countless
>> > millions of hours spent on this, we KNOW, we are very grateful but I am getting
tired
>> > of you always shoving it in our face as an excuse for us to have to bow down
and do
>> > it the Terry way. We are not stupid, do not treat us as stupid. You are not
stupid, we know
>> > that. We are not here to piss you off, but you seem to trying very hard to do
that to me
>> > at least. Now, quit the jibes and learn to do things in a way that will please
us all.
>> >
>> > Gav...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> So we do have the means in terms of Oracle enabling, but we, the project,
>> >> don't have the resources / expertise to step up to this. If I am still here
in 3
>> >> months and this is still an outstanding issue, then I'll try to sort it
out.
>> >>
>> >> Regards Terry
>> >>
>> >> On 01/09/11 20:59, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> >> > Um, so your answer is no?
>> >> >
>> >> > You do not have any means to deal with that mailing list issue on the
live
>> >> openoffice.org site?
>> >> >
>> >> > Any suggestions?
>> >> >
>> >> >   - Dennis
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:04 To:dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> >> > Cc:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > Subject: Administrative controls / management of the mailing lists
>> >> >
>> >> > Dennis,
>> >> >
>> >> > As we've discussed previously there is almost a "religious" split
>> >> > between those that work on forums and those that work on MLs and DLs.
>> >> > Very few of those involved in the governance of the forums would have
>> >> > anything to do with DLs/MLs and v.v.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, what you are really talking about is a configuration issue
of
>> >> > the mail forwarder.  It's more an application issue if we get control
>> >> > of the application support.  I have exactly the same issues with my
>> >> > mail responder that is built into the forums.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Terry, do you know if those administrative controls extend to the
>> >> >> management of the mailing lists, such as the ones for
>> >> >> http://fr.openoffice.org  (apparently at
>> >> >> <http://openoffice.org/projects/fr/lists>).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you have any information on how we can empower someone to block
>> >> a
>> >> >> bad echo?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Every post to the more-heavily-populated lists there generates
three
>> >> >> notices fromservice-clients@sc.sfr.fr. Then we need to find the
>> >> >> subscribers whose e-mail addresses are landing at the responding
site
>> >> >> and disable those.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I also fear that there is nothing in our planned work to preserve
>> >> >> these portions of the openoffice.org domain.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Dennis
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: Terry Ellison [mailto:Terry@ellisons.org.uk]
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 09:47
>> >> >> To:ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> Subject: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyone is able to join the OOo Community forums, but we also have
a
>> >> >> number of closed forums use for internal management of the site.
If
>> >> >> any committers would like to have access to these, then just make
>> >> >> sure that they've got an active account on the current production
>> >> >> service (not
>> >> >> ooo-forums.apache.org) and email me me from it requesting access.
I
>> >> >> will then raise you to "volunteer" so that you can see the main
>> >> >> closed forums.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please note: the forum rules apply to all and all volunteers are
>> >> >> expected to follow them -- including me or any other committer.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards
>> >> >> Terr
>> >
>> >
>>
>

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