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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: Dissatisfaction amongst the community admins, moderators and volunteers
Date Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:14:26 GMT
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Terry Ellison <> wrote:
> Rob, the volunteers on the forums want to keep providing a service for all
> OOo end-users that they can take pride and dignity in.  That's all.  The
> debating style here can be robust and sometimes falls far below the standard
> that we expect participants to follow.
>  (The
> English version)

I have every due bit of sympathy for the trauma (as I've heard it
called in another context) of migrating from OOo to AOOo.  But you are
not the only one.  And the support forums are not the only project
function that will need to make some changes.  It is hardly the
function undergoing the greatest changes. The dev work, especially
with the change of VCS and license is requiring changes far greater
than the support forums will.  Ditto for overall project decision
making. For example, no more Engineering Steering Committee, no
Community Council, etc.  Of all project functions, the support forums
are the ones that are being migrated with the least changes.

Another thing to note is that the existing forum volunteers do not
"own" the support forums.  They do not operate autonomously.  They may
have pride in its operation -- I hope they do -- but this does not
mean that they have exclusive ownership of this or any aspect of this
project.  This may take some getting used to.  Pride will come from
accomplishment, not from exclusive control.

> Many people are unwilling to be (what they view as ) attacked this way on a
> DL that can go to 100s of recipients.  This "Apache way" might work for a
> group of largely US and nearly all English first-tongue/fluent-speaking
> software developers, but the approach doesn't work for other communities and
> cultures.  It really needs to be more flexible if Apache wants to move
> beyond this base.

If by "flexible" you mean that we discuss routine project operations
in private because we don't like email lists, then I disagree.

> I agree that a fully open model can work.  I am an active Wikipedian and it
> works there, but the collaborative vehicle -- an overloaded wiki model -- if
> just so much more flexible than using 1980s-style plain-text email.  Also
> the Policies and Guidelines are strictly policed: you can hide your email
> address, and users who break the rules are admonished or blocked.  Here once
> you speak out you are putting out an Email address and on which you be
> harassed thereafter.

Terry, it is not like Apache is trying out the idea of running
projects on email for the first time today. This is not a novel
experiment.  It works and has worked for over 100 Apache projects and
for longer than OOo has existed..  And that fact that OOo has 300+
mailing lists itself shows that the concept is not entirely
antithetical to how OOo works.

We should also try to separate the technology from the process.  A
mailing list is a means to an end.  The use of private mailing lists,
used only when needed, have several qualities:

1) All PPMC members receive them

2) All Podling Mentors receive them, which allows them to admonish us
if we abuse the private list

3) They are archived and searchable ("discoverable" in a legal sense) by Apache

4) All ASF Members have the ability to consult all private list archives

If there is a reasonable way to achieve the same results for the
private forums, then I would be very pleased.  But inviting PPMC
members to join does not achieve all of these goals.  However, echoing
private forum traffic to ooo-private would.

> I will quote one of my responses on these thread -- that those with CV
> rights can check:
>   * Re: Status: Preservation/Migration with Apache
> <>
>> To be honest, I think that the best think for all would be for Apache to
>> accept that a user-facing service is very different from interacting with
>> developers and show us a little toleration. I think most of us would prefer
>> the Apache route or maybe a LibO route if we could keep the forums running
>> smoothly.
>> In my view the crazy thing is that this type of service could be
>> incredibly useful for other Apache projects. Our model is designed to scale
>> and we could just as easily add and run a forum to support another Apache
>> project as we could another National Language for OOo.
>> I continue to wish for the best, but I am not hopeful. If this would all
>> settle down then I would consider re-engaging. But whether we go or stay is
>> really a consensus decision for this community to make. I just don't want to
>> be portrayed as the "leader of the rebellion".
>> However, I need my month in Greece to regain my sense of peace and
>> harmony, before I take on anything else relating to OOo or any other major
>> project.
> I am not going to try to speak for them.   I would suggest that if you, who
> are seen as the main spokesperson for the "hard Apache line", aren't willing
> to show a step in the direction of reconciliation -- say by joining the
> forums as a volunteer and listening to them in their own environment -- then
> Apache will have zero chance of getting them to participate.  They have
> tried v.v. and given up.
> Regards
> Terry
> On 04/09/11 15:42, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Reizinger Zoltán<>
>>  wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Why you think the volunteers and admins will join to this list, if you
>>> not
>>> makes any steps into the other directions?
>> I'm assuming the volunteers and admins want positive results.  The
>> decision-making in the project occurs on this list -- ooo-dev -- by
>> participants making and discussing proposals.    So I think that
>> volunteers and admins should join and participate in this list so they
>> can engage in an open, two-way conversation on how the project,
>> including the support forums, are run.
>> Remember, I am just one person, with my own ppinion.  I have only one
>> vote.  I don't make the decisions myself.  But if an admin or other
>> forum volunteer is not participating on the ooo-dev list at all, then
>> their opinions will likely be unheard and their vote uncounted.  That
>> is why you should encourage them to participate on the ooo-dev list.
>> -Rob

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