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From Rob Weir <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] NL Mailing Lists (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at
Date Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:59:15 GMT
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<> wrote:
> I am changing the topic of this branch of the discussion.
> I am worried about some problems with mailing lists and migration of
 If the problems are allowed, it should be on purpose.
> I suggest discussing those problems before the situation is made worse.  I will move
this topic to the OOOUSER wiki on the weekend.
>  1. The current list arrangement is technically superior to what is proposed for replacement.

Could be be more specific about what you think is technically superior
about the existing approach?  And by that I assume you mean the 332
existing OOo mailing lists?

>  2. Shutting down the resources of a community and expecting that community to migrate
itself onto an alternative will deteriorate if not completely lose the participation of that

Is this really true?  Have you looked at recent traffic on
ooo-dev@i.a.o versus dev@oo.o, for example?

And was your dire prediction true of LibreOffice?  I don't think so.

Certainly there is a tipping point, when a critical mass of
participants move over from one list to another.  That takes time.
This is encouraged by giving a consistent message about the migration,
something we've failed to do so far.  For example, even after we
agreed to create ooo-users, I see you talking about this, on that list
and elsewhere, as a mistake.  That is not helping.


> Preservation of the existing mailing lists and their services; the means for doing so.
> Migration of the existing mailing list services and content onto Apache hosting along
with hosting.
> Restoration of moderation and support of the lists themselves.
> Within the existing structure and subscriber community of each NL group: simplification,
consolidation, or retirement (with preservation) of existing lists that are redundant, inactive,
or too specialized to sustain.
> Adjustment of the operational support to satisfy ASF requirements for oversight and accountability.
> Transfer of lists to different services and operation only when loss of functionality
and community disruption is minimized.
> Automatic continuation of the established community and subscriptions on any migration
onto different list systems.
> Involvement and engagement of the existing NL group community in each step of the way.
 Minimize avoidable disaffection.
>  - Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: []
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 01:55
> To:
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Set up of ooo-dev-ja at
> Hello,
> Dave Fisher schrieb:
>> > if you mix everything like user questions and answers,
>> marketing, QA
>> > et cetra on only *one ML*, you will alienate the poor users.
>> >
>> > But it seems to be the way it is.
>> > so ... I wish you all the best.
>> I understand your concerns about mixing marketing with users.
>> What are the other categories besides marketing that users
>> should be shielded from? Translation? We've been mentored to
>> only have additional lists for good reason and with careful
>> consideration of the community and our oversight
>> responsibilities to the ASF.
> It is very, very simple.
> The list is a list ONLY for german-speaking users. This
> users a _not Community-members_ but only users and this users cannot write
> questions in english.
> The list is a support-list for users, not a list to
> coordinate the activity of the project-members.
> OK, we can replace by a german forum but the users just
> like, and it would be better to have a German-language
> forum AND a german USERS-list.
> Greetings
> Jörg
> --

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