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From Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
Date Tue, 06 Sep 2011 14:10:53 GMT
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Clearly you didn't read the whole sentence
> in context.  You certainly cannot delegate
> away someone'sPPMC voting rights on new committers,
> but that wouldn'tbe something I'd call a
> management/oversightaspect of the forums.
>

Well, we both need to read more carefully then, since that was exactly
the analogy I was using in my original note:

>>>>>>And if I wanted to create a group called the "Calc developer
>>>>>>volunteers", could we join the project, with the understanding the
>>>>>>rest of the project would leave us alone?  We would vote in our own
>>>>>>committers, etc,. independently of the normal PMC process.  We would
>>>>>>conduct our business on restricted-access mailing lists, not visible
>>>>>>to the public.  But on request we'd allow PMC members to join these
>>>>>>lists.

You came back with saying that "ALL" oversight could be delegated.
Sorry if I misinterpreted that as a response to my hypothetical.

The relevance is this:

Forum admins can change the code on the forum.  Ordinarily that would
be something that we would restricted to a project committer, with
iCLA, correct?   Do any other Apache projects have websites where the
code is changed by non-committers (aside from community wikis)?

Given that, would you then agree that an admin (as a committer) should
also be approved by the PPMC?  But if you agree with that, then what
about the current ability for a forum admin to assign admin rights to
others?

That's all I was getting at.  I think the analogy was apt.  Sorry if
it wasn't as clear as it could have been.

-Rob

> Two different animals.
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>>From: Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org>
>>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:44 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
>>
>>On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Where did you get that from in what I wrote?
>>>
>>
>>Your use of the term "ALL" (in bold characters)
>>
>>-Rob
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>From: Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org>
>>>>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:39 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
>>>>
>>>>On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>>>> It's called delegation Rob, and it's done all the
>>>>> time within the ASF.  The PPMC can delegate ALL
>>>>>
>>>>> management/oversight aspects to whomever is on
>>>>> the PPMC that is also involved with the forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> So long as 1 person on the PPMC is watching over
>>>>> the activity, and anything noteworthy gets passed
>>>>> along to the board via PPMC reports, it's a perfectly
>>>>> humane way of conducting yourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So we can delegate selection of approval of committers to a single
>>>>PPMC member?  Really?
>>>>
>>>>-Rob
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>From: Rob Weir <robweir@apache.org>
>>>>>>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:27 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the ooo forums
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>> Up until a few days ago I thought we had one.
>>>>>>> Move the forums over to the ASF, give the PPMC
>>>>>>> and ASF members the full ability (upon request)
>>>>>>> to oversee allcommunications within the forums,
>>>>>>> and life goeson.  I see no need for the Volunteers
>>>>>>> to join the PPMC or anything like that, just keep
>>>>>>> doing whatever you're doing and keep the PPMC abreast
>>>>>>> of anything report-worthy when they need to report
>>>>>>> to the board.  If the Volunteers want to incorporate
>>>>>>> some Apache-style voting processes into their ops,
>>>>>>> go for it!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And if I wanted to create a group called the "Calc developer
>>>>>>volunteers", could we join the project, with the understanding the
>>>>>>rest of the project would leave us alone?  We would vote in our own
>>>>>>committers, etc,. independently of the normal PMC process.  We would
>>>>>>conduct our business on restricted-access mailing lists, not visible
>>>>>>to the public.  But on request we'd allow PMC members to join these
>>>>>>lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ignore for a second the IP implications.  That is really a red
>>>>>>herring.  The point is meritocracy, decision making and PMC oversight.
>>>>>>Think of similar analogies with non-release aspects of the project,
>>>>>>like web site design, documentation, wikis, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Where else does Apache have a meritocracy embedded in a project that
>>>>>>does not commune with the PMC?  In an ideal world, where everything
>>>>>>just worked, and there were never any disagreements or disputes, then
>>>>>>this might work.  But in that world we wouldn't need a PMC or an
ASF
>>>>>>Board either.  In any case, we don't live in such a world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is bizarre, but I hear people advocating for community
>>>>>>fragmentation in the name of community unity.  Having two parallel
>>>>>>meritocracies within the same project is fragmentation.  I don't
see
>>>>>>how we can call it anything else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>From: Rory O'Farrell <ofarrwrk@iol.ie>
>>>>>>>>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 9:08 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [RT] Create a second incubator podling - the
ooo forums
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 05:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>>Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>>> So to answer your questions, yes it certainly could be
done
>>>>>>>>> within the Apache structure.  No it probably cannot
be done
>>>>>>>>> to host stuff here on behalf of some third party.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks, that is helpful in clarifying options.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>So to be hosted on Apache one would need to find some mechanism
whereby a forum would fit into Apache; by your earlier post you do not think there is such
a mechanism. Might Apache be prepared to modify (by extension) their structures to accomodate
these?  This becomes a problem for the legal draughtsmen, of course.  The old rule of £minimal
change" ought apply.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm not asking for a change, just exploring the possibility
of one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>Rory O'Farrell <ofarrwrk@iol.ie>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>

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